P-47D Dottie Mae Update 12/15/2008

Rob Mears · **Posted:** Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:55 pm

Funny you should use those examples. Just like Swoose and Flak Bait, this is the last P-47 in existence (and a combat aircraft at that) that survives as an absolute time capsule. Can you name another? There's exactly one Corsair in that condition (the RNFAA example), and one P-61 in that condition (at the NASM). The greatest gift of their provenance is that they are truly unique and priceless touchstones of history. The museums responsible for them are aware of that, and they display them unrestored for that very reason.

If there weren't a half dozen other P-47 restorations already in prep for restoration to complement those already flying, I'd see a more pressing reason to restore this particular one to fly (like the NAAM P-61). But the fact is, there are plenty of otherwise "generic" P-47's to fill that bill. Sanitizing the only preserved example of a combat Thunderbolt, complete with nose art and back story, just seems a little like the refinishing Hitler's personal sidearm to make it more pretty for display.

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I think one other thing comes to mind, like people who do hoarding, and will not throw anything out, because it has some sort of memory attached to it.

Hmmmm, aren't memories what defines the legacies of these machines? If not for memories, the P-51 would be nothing more than another general aviation airplane that suffers from bad gas milage and too few seats. There's nothing wrong with being a "horsepower junkie" or just generally liking warbirds because they look cool, but for the majority of warbird enthusiasts, it's the history behind these birds that makes them such rich objects of affection. Otherwise these planes would be good for nothing more than air racing and hot rodding. The days of viewing these planes as "sport flyers" largely died out in the 1980's which is why you see very few if any of them painted like Starsky & Hutch's Gran Torino anymore! :lol:

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for a sympathetic airworthy restoration when it comes to Dottie Mae as long as every square inch of her is photographically documented beforehand. I mean, even a purist who restores classic cars needs at least one example of that car in original configuration to justify the preciseness of his restoration. If the owner were to forsake the unique situation surrounding this plane just to create another stripped out and modernized sport plane, I don't think the tradeoff would be worth it. Luckily, it sounds like the current owner is up to speed with the modern warbird scene, and knows what kind of restoration will bring him the greatest kudos, and value.

Hellcat · **Posted:** Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:12 pm

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The days of viewing these planes as "sport flyers" largely died out in the 1980's

I think I respectfully disagree with this statement but I could be wrong, (usually am anyway) I think "sport flyers" are on the rise, unless I don't understand what you mean by "sport flyers". But I would agree with most of the rest of your post ... we're also discussing 65 year old history and not 650 year old history. It's really not that long ago. ... but I would agree that this particular P-47 would probably be better served as a time capsule of an experience during WW2.

But I would just get a kick out of seeing this aircraft fly, If only once, in her original markings. Then stick her in a glass case. :wink:

Maybe I should have stuck my dad in a glass case after he passed away too .... :cry:

... forget I said that ....

Rob Mears · **Posted:** Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:28 pm

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we're also discussing 65 year old history and not 650 year old history. It's really not that long ago...

Ahhh, but one day it will be 650 year old history, and how phenomenal would it be if society still had that one unadulterated example of a P-47 to judge from? Even the Mona Lisa was "just another painting of a pretty woman" at one point in time.

By "sport flying" I was referring to the days when a pilot/owner would elect to paint his rare and unique combat fighter like a modern sports car, simply because the desire to understand the specific history of the plane was not a top priority (it was only 25 year old history at that point). The greatest value of the plane at that time was in how slick the paint was, and whether it had that latest state-of-the-art Loran C system installed! :lol:

My point was that the continued reflection to define timeless value vs. passing fancy has driven the warbird market towards the characteristics that honor originality, especially with actual combat survivors.

A2C · **Posted:** Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:33 pm

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Ahhh, but one day it will be 650 year old history, and how phenomenal would it be if society still had that one unadulterated example of a P-47 to judge from? Even the Mona Lisa was "just another painting of a pretty woman" at one point in time. .

That's up to the guy who owns it, but the Smithsonian has plenty of that sort of thing.

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By "sport flying" I was referring to the days when a pilot/owner would elect to paint his rare and unique combat fighter like a modern sports car, simply because the desire to understand the specific history of the plane was not a top priority (it was only 25 year old history at that point). The greatest value of the plane at that time was in how slick the paint was, and whether it had that latest state-of-the-art Loran C system installed! My point was that recent history has shown just what factors hold timeless value, and which ones were a passing fancy, that's all

It's not for you or me to decide, the guy who owns the plane can put whatever he wants on it, even polkadots.

Rob Mears · **Posted:** Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:47 pm

Fear not!! The owner still has every right to paint Dottie Mae in big pink & purple polka dots if he wants, and I believe he'll remain free from persecution by Big Government if he elects to do so. :lol:

I doubt Mr. Croul is shaking in his boots over my opinion of his plane, but this is a forum for voicing opinions, forming perspectives, and further refining our understanding of things through research and experience.

How many untouched examples of an original combat P-47 does the Smithsonian have by the way?

Hellcat · **Posted:** Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:53 pm

Rob Mears wrote:

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we're also discussing 65 year old history and not 650 year old history. It's really not that long ago...

Ahhh, but one day it will be 650 year old history, and how phenomenal would it be if society still had that one unadulterated example of a P-47 to judge from? Even the Mona Lisa was "just another painting of a pretty woman" at one point in time.

By "sport flying" I was referring to the days when a pilot/owner would elect to paint his rare and unique combat fighter like a modern sports car, simply because the desire to understand the specific history of the plane was not a top priority (it was only 25 year old history at that point). The greatest value of the plane at that time was in how slick the paint was, and whether it had that latest state-of-the-art Loran C system installed! :lol:

My point was that the continued reflection to define timeless value vs. passing fancy has driven the warbird market towards the characteristics that honor originality, especially with actual combat survivors.

Very good points, but 65 year old history falls into my (unfortunately) time frame of living on this good earth, so for my (very selfish reasons ... :wink:

) I would rather see it fly once in my lifetime and then after I'm dead and gone ... stick it in a museum right next to it's original material and let the years roll to 650. ... Very difficult and interesting conversation here in this thread, but I'm a pilot, I got that "airplanes are mean't to fly" thing in my blood, so I'll always side with the guys who want to see an airplane with air under it's wings. ... :wink:

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Even the Mona Lisa was "just another painting of a pretty woman"

Pretty woman? .... I always thought "she" was a "he" ... You had my utmost attention until that statement .... ouch!!!! ... :wink:

A2C · **Posted:** Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:05 pm

Hellcat wrote:

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Very good points, but 65 year old history falls into my (unfortunately) time frame of living on this good earth, so for my (very selfish reasons ... ) I would rather see it fly once in my lifetime and then after I'm dead and gone ... stick it in a museum right next to it's original material. ... Very difficult and interesting conversation here in this thread, but I'm a pilot, I got that Quote:
"airplanes are mean't to fly"
thing in my blood, so I'll always side with the guys with want to see an airplane with air under it's wings. ...

Let's take this whole obsession a step further, and connect it to what the aviation archeology thread we've discussed earlier. We've got too many of these Phd type archeologists taking the obsession w/ history so far that nothing would fly. That it's more important to let the thing rot in it's original position with bullet holes in it than to repair those bullet holes and fly it. That's what Pacific Wrecks data base wants. It's an obsession, and very similar to other ills like hoarding, anorexia, LIPPO, and grandma keeping 50 cats in her bed and stuff like that.

Rob Mears · **Posted:** Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:31 pm

It's a mistake to equate the 'Pacific Wrecks' value system with the concept of common sense preservation. Those guys want to preserve wreck sites, not aircraft. My desire would be to see the preservation of singular, unique examples of particular aircraft with one of a kind history.

I'm all for restoring and flying Swamp Ghost and Glacier Girl, but if Lt. Cunningham's "Jolly Rogers" combat Corsair was ever recovered from the island of Ballale, I would most definitely want to see it preserved in an appropriate museum. There's a critical difference between those two perspectives that shouldn't be overlooked. It sounds like you would want everything to fly with no exceptions. Some might consider the complete lack of reverence for the historical aspects of historic aircraft no less a mental disorder than keeping fifty cats under the bed. :wink:

Would the desire to see 61 Mustangs flying overhead rather than 60 really warrant the destruction of a perfectly rare and critical artifact, if in fact Mustang number 61 was truly unique in relation to the others?

Hellcat · **Posted:** Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:47 pm

Rob Mears wrote:

It's a mistake to equate the 'Pacific Wrecks' value system with the concept of common sense preservation. Those guys want to preserve wreck sites, not aircraft. My desire would be to see the preservation of singular, unique examples of particular aircraft with one of a kind history.

I'm all for restoring and flying Swamp Ghost and Glacier Girl, but if Lt. Cunningham's "Jolly Rogers" combat Corsair was ever recovered from the island of Ballale, I would most definitely want to see it preserved in an appropriate museum. There's a critical difference between those two perspectives that shouldn't be overlooked. It sounds like you would want everything to fly with no exceptions. Some might consider the complete lack of reverence for the historical aspects of historic aircraft no less a mental disorder than keeping fifty cats under the bed. :wink:

Would the desire to see 61 Mustangs flying overhead rather than 60 really warrant the destruction of a perfectly rare and critical artifact, if in fact Mustang number 61 was truly unique in relation to the others?

Rob, I think you made your point. My personal interests and what are and should be of the best interest are clearly different, but one can dream, can't one? I fully agree with your well stated points and most here would have a difficult time justifying anything to the contrary, just keep my well intended feelings clear from the above members statements. ... I'm not following him too well here in this thread .... to each is own though .... :?:

Rob Mears · **Posted:** Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:18 pm

FWIW, knowing that Dottie Mae is destined to fly, I'd be lieing if I said I wasn't looking forward to seeing her execute a few low passes for the crowds.

I hope to see her up there with "Happy Jacks Go Buggy" when the time comes to hand out the awards!

A2C · **Posted:** Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:39 pm

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FWIW, knowing that Dottie Mae is destined to fly, I'd be lieing if I said I wasn't looking forward to seeing her execute a few low passes for the crowds. I hope to see her up there with "Happy Jacks Go Buggy" when the time comes to hand out the awards!

Let's hope it's running it's supercharger, original oil, and too heavy vacuum tube radios, no GPS, no transponder, fully loaded machine guns with original bullets, and other out of date stuff. Let's hope the pilot's wearing an original parachute, and the instruments are radium coated with an EPA waiver letter approved from the state senator, and machine guns with ATF license.--All for the sake of originality.

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:54 pm

The only thing I don't like hearing here is "Let's make sure that we document everything before we lose all of it and put in a jump seat." I feel that there is going to be a huge loss in history if the aircraft is repainted. This is why I always say that we need both static and flying warbirds. This is an aircraft that might actually be better off preserved in a museum. That is if we are talking about true preservation of history.

A2C · **Posted:** Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:01 pm

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The only thing I don't like hearing here is "Let's make sure that we document everything before we lose all of it and put in a jump seat." I feel that there is going to be a huge loss in history if the aircraft is repainted. This is why I always say that we need both static and flying warbirds. This is an aircraft that might actually be better off preserved in a museum. That is if we are talking about true preservation of history.

The air force museum has 2 non-flying never registered airplanes. There is plenty of photo documentation in manuals. if you're really serioius take 500 pictures of the air force museums planes, and take paint chips.

Then grab dottie may, and throw the jump seat, GPS's, transponder, electronic map, and powder coating (not in that order) in the cockpit. Then you can put your polka dots or bright red on for the paint job. Pull your supercharger and junk radios and other electronics to save weight. Modify the cowling, clip the wings, and put big numbers on and take her to Reno.

rwdfresno · **Posted:** Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:03 pm

It would be great to see this aircraft traded for a P-47 that is currently in a static National collection. I'd love to see it preserved. That would be a win win for everyone if you ask me.

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:04 pm

Or and I am getting my flame suit ready, swap the NMUSAF or NASM and leave the real combat vet on static and fly the one without the record. Flame away. :idea:

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P-47D Dottie Mae Update 12/15/2008

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