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Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:12 pm 
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Following along the same lines as the A-10 "Fire Hog" concept. Does anyone know if the A-3 Skywarrior or the S-3 Viking have been considered as possible Air Tankers? Or any other post Neptune or Orion types?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:45 pm 
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I don't know what other types have been considered but I would hope that someone considers the Japanese Shin Meiwa PS-1, a four engine flying boat!

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:14 pm 
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I wonder if the P5M was ever considered. Maybe at the time they were available, Catalina/Cansos were still too cheap to make Marlins cost-effective?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:50 pm 
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Strip out all the gear and it should have a really good power/weight ratio. I don't know if the fuse design lends itself very well to a tank install. Interesting concept.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:14 pm 
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Is it fair to say that airframes "Over Engineered" for the rigors of NAVY Carrier operations would be well suited for stresses as Air Tankers?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:18 pm 
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Shay wrote:
Following along the same lines as the A-10 "Fire Hog" concept.

What was the A-10 "Fire Hog" concept?

Looked around and couldn't find anything.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:41 pm 
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Some years ago a concept was put forward to turn A-10s into firefighting aircraft. I saw a concept pic showing Hog with an underside conformal retardant tank. The project has never come to fruition because the Air Force has never released any A-10s for sale to the civilian market.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:44 pm 
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The company was AeroTech Ltd. They used to have a website www.firehogs.com, but it is now defunct. Still a neat idea.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:45 am 
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Those ideas might work for State Resources Departments, however, YOUR USGUMMINT Department of the Interior will only consider a brand new, purpose designed, to their specifications submission for a tanker that they will allow to fight fires on Federal land.
Just what we need! An airplane designed by a committee of Federal bureaucrats, I'll just bet Boring or Lockweed want to step up to that challenge to build maybe as many as 25 airframes on a fixed bid pricing basis.
Thats why they use 300 gallon helicopter buckets on Federal wildfires, not taking anything at all away from those fearless and dedicated individuals, but if the local lumber yard is on fire, I'd hope the guys in the funny hats would show up with more than squirtguns to fight it!!
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
'scuse me while I whips dis out'

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:35 am 
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Aero Union did a study to convert the S-3 into a fire tanker. I would guess that 9/11 did a number on any study involving military aircraft....

Enjoy the Day! Mark


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:43 am 
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Mark Nankivil wrote:
Aero Union did a study to convert the S-3 into a fire tanker. I would guess that 9/11 did a number on any study involving military aircraft....

Enjoy the Day! Mark


That's shame if true. The S-3 seems like it would be a candidate for being an Air Tanker. And with the remainder of the fleet retiring sometime here in 2009, some current airframes would be available.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAuBRbkb31o

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:05 am 
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If they can convert an S-3 GW could fly it. Hes' already got time in one, and will be looking for a job next month.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:35 am 
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Since I don't see him as the type of guy who will go on the speech circuit, or turn out a bunch of books. He may go for it, and have a lot of fun.

It might help with the future traffic jams in the neighborhood just north of me too.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:54 am 
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I could be wrong, but I don't think you will be seeing any S-3's fighting fires as one of the reasons for their retirement is fatigue cracking issues in critical structural areas of the aircraft. :shock:
Robbie

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:56 am 
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Robbie Stuart wrote:
I could be wrong, but I don't think you will be seeing any S-3's fighting fires as one of the reasons for their retirement is fatigue cracking issues in critical structural areas of the aircraft. :shock:
Robbie


I've not read anywhere about fatigue issues regarding the S-3. Do you have a source for this information? My understanding was that they were staying on long enough to allow the new Super Hornets to fill the roles. In fact:

[url]
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_displ ... =1500&ct=1[/url]

Quote:
Lockheed Martin’s Full-Scale Fatigue Test to determine the aircraft’s fatigue life expended and areas of structural concern was completed in 2004. The results demonstrated that the basic service life of the airframe could be as high as 23,000 flight hours. The average number of flight hours on all S-3Bs is currently less than 13,000 flight hours. In March 2006, CNAF approved the modification of 13 S-3Bs to carry the Low Altitude Navigation Targeting Infrared for Night (LANTIRN) system, obtained from retiring F-14D Tomcat aircraft, to fulfill NTISR mission requirements in support of Global War on Terror (GWOT). Additionally, a video data transmission system has been installed to facilitate the sending of all aircraft sensor video to ground units equipped with the Rover III tactical ground station. One prototype has been delivered to VS-32 and is presently deployed. The remainder of the installs LANTIRN and video transmission systems will be completed by early 2007, enabling the S-3B Viking to remain a viable multi-mission platform until 2009.





(As Mank mentioned) I guess Aero Union has or had been looking at the Viking

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/s-3.htm
Quote:
Waterbomber / Airtanker
In mid-2004 Lockheed Martin and Chico, California-based Aero Union started discussions about using the S-3B Vikings as waterbombers as they retire from active service. Large airtankers are primarily used for initial attack and structure protection support. Not every initial attack effort gets air support. Firefighters are trained to improvise and adapt to the conditions on the ground, and to the resources available to fight fire. Aero Union is the largest, most innovative air tanker company in the United States. Aero Union's tanker bases cover most states in the western United States, from Arizona to Montana, with frequent dispatches to fires in the Midwest and the east coast. As of late 2004 Aero Union maintained 8 P3 Orions, 3 SP2H Neptunes and 2 DC-4 Sky Masters ready for instant dispatch by the US Forest Service during the aircraft's contract period.

Aerial Firefighting Industry Association (AFIA) airtanker companies provide aerial firefighting services to all regions of the United States during the peak fire season. The National Airtanker Study (NATS), was completed in two phases. Phase I, completed in 1995, recommended a national fleet of 41 large air-tankers. Phase II, completed in 1996, gave 16 recommendations to guide the airtanker program for the next 20 years.

On 10 May 2004, the Forest Service and the Department of the Interior terminated the contracts for 33 large airtankers to be used in firefighting missions due to concerns over the airworthiness of the aircraft, and firefighter and public safety. The decision was based on safety recommendations from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) issued April 23, 2004, at the conclusion of their investigation into three fatal airtanker crashes related to in-flight structural failures.

The agencies are looking to private industry, educational institutions and other organizations for technologies to create a large fixed-wing airtanker fleet with aircraft specifically designed for this mission and capable of meeting airworthiness requirements from the FAA. The future development of a safe large airtanker program will be realized with these partners and Congress.



Shay
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Last edited by Shay on Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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