Digging into the archives

[daveymac82c]

Hey James,

I guess I should'a read the whole thread. I admit that I didn't read much of the thread, but I did enjoy the pictures... I guess I would learn more if I read the words in the thread too.

-David

[JDK]

I guess I should'a read the whole thread. I admit that I didn't read much of the thread, but I did enjoy the pictures... I guess I would learn more if I read the words in the thread too.

Repeat after me... Words and pictures...

Actually, I vaguely recalled 51fixer's remark, but I admit it took me two goes through the whole thread to find it!

Great stories coming out of it all though - thanks Garbs.

[garbs]

Man - makes me wish I could step into a time machine and go back there with my 6.2 MP Pentax

Here are a few more of the display/in progress craft from Harlingen '75:

[garbs]

And the ramp residents:

















This is the only one I have with any appreciable coverage of the nose art collection. Looks like there are a good number of round engines underneath, as well as the better part of a P-38.



More next week

[bdk]

Does anyone know how the Buchons got to VAM, I always thought they were trucked in but they might have been flown in.

Never flew in or out of there.

[PeterA]

Re-'RAF' Buchons: Basically the same as I said on the second page of the thread in two posts, although I'm not sure either way about the temporary paint wear issue. I didn't believe that any Buchons left the filming in RAF colours for 'ours' and 'theirs' political reasons; I'd assumed therefore that the RAF colours were washable and removed; the alternative being another layer of Luftwaffe paint was applied over them, which was to later wear off, which seems unlikely to me. My assumption that none were left in RAF colours may be wrong.

Great thread!

The 1968 time line for the aerial filming.

Spring: Lone Spitfire dispatched to Spain for filming of formation Heinkels and Buchons.

16 May: Spitfire, mass Buchons and two purchased Heinkels fly to Duxford,UK base.

Battle of France, Hurricane ground and Chateau shots filmed at Duxford

Appalling cloudy and wet summer in UK delays filming.

Circa late August: Spitfire (and some Buchons?...and the airworthy Hurricanes?) dispatched to Southern France to find better weather.

Late summer: Duxford base vacated, possibly contractual, and operation moved to RAF Bovingdon, aerial photography now completed. RAF Gate Guards, 'Markaddies' etc roaded to RAF Henlow for restitution of original configuration.

26 October: Static show put on to meet public demand at RAF Bovingdon. Not in the line up but accessible outside hangers, the first sighting of several Buchons in RAF full markings.

Aircraft dispersed back to original and new civil owners in the last livery applied by the film company

It was the understanding at the time that the RAF Buchons were airworthy and used late in the day to pad out the background of the head on Hurricane formation shots.

PeterA

[Django]

I like the 'Lil and the nose art panel pics.

[Robbie Stuart]

IIRC the P-38 parts in the above picture are from the Scatterbrain Kid project.
Robbie

[garbs]

I'm surprised no one mentioned the styro Schlitz coolers

Last I have from CAF 1975:











And the project temporarily on hold:



I believe the following photos are from the 1981 visit but I will check tonight - may have uploaded them to the wrong folder

[Jackdaw]

Re. Hurrischmitts

I had the opportunity to look through some old Battle of Britain film prints this evening which included the RAF Buchon's. As you can see there were several variations on the codes applied including two styles of MI T, which suggests they were used on more than one occasion which led to this error with continuity. The hangar shots were I believe taken at Duxford, whilst the exterior views were taken at Bovingdon.

My gut feeling is that the Buchon at the Victory Air museum example had a quick repaint for a low budget movie, but hopefully someone out knows the exact reason.

Jackdaw.

[garbs]

My apologies for any confusion; the last three photos (P-63, Buchon, & engineless Red Nose) were from 1981 as was the shot with the nose art sections and P-38 tail.

Just for contrast, here was Red Nose at OSH 2006:



I have about 40 from Harlingen 1981 - I'll start a handful at a time. Please let me know when it gets old! I"ll start with active birds on the ramp prior to the show.

















Enough for now - later!

[Steve Nelson]

As you can see there were several variations on the codes applied including two styles of MI T, which suggests they were used on more than one occasion which led to this error with continuity.

Actually, the first print of MI-T appears to be reversed (the codes read T-IM.) Note the Swastika on the Buchon in the background..it's facing the wrong direction.

SN

[JDK]

Hi Peter,
Thanks for your most useful post on the matter, with dates. Problem is, I don't think it answers the critical questions which are as follows:

1. Were the RAF marking overpainted by Luftwaffe ones at the end /after filming (or even during)?

2. Were the RAF markings 'temporary' paint?

3. Are the markings seen at the Victory Air Museum the same (as far as can be established) as the BoB film RAF scheme?





Note the lack of distinction between the upper surface green and brown (something that could change when the paint ages) and a hard edge between the colours - less possible an aging factor. {Edit - but the lines are in similar but slightly different positions - possible with a 'sister' aircraft less likely with a completely different scheme.} Argh...

4. Where did the RAF scheme Buchon footage seen briefly in From He11 to Victory come from?

5. When can we get rid of the silly net-nanny censor that stops up posting 'He11' properly? If there's a forum user who can't handle that word, I'd be amazed, and that forum default can be changed. (Please!)

Thanks to 'Jackdaw' for his input. But I think the 'continuity' error Buchon shot is actually just reversed - going by the Swastika on the tail in the background (there's no other incorrect Swastikas in the BoB film AFAIK). [EDIT - beaten by Steve!]

[PeterA]

Huricane/Buchons,

James,

Gary Brown's images show us a new direction that we the 'Roundel Police', should have spotted. I have also taken a closer look at the Mundelein shot.

As I remember John Lowe and Larry Matt acquired the two XIV fuselages, three one side Mk IX wings and the two Seafire 46 fuselages that were the Dennis Kay collection. This was via Bill Francis who was a technician on the film aircraft. One of the XIV's RM694 did make a brief appearance at RAF Henlow during build up to the film but was not used. Lowe and Matt also acquired a number (2?) of Buchons at the end of the film. As I remember they were low grade examples, not flying aircraft or even taxiing aircraft. Perhaps spare airframes roaded in from Spain or residue from film accidents.

As previously said, the RAF Buchons in the BoB film logically were flying aircraft and this does appear to be the case, pitot covers etc.

Look at the wing roundel at Duxford, type B and correct for Battle of France Hurricanes and the Mundelein example, type A, incorrect and never used in the the upper wing location. Further examination of the Mundelein roundel suggests that the bright white area is where it has been protected by the German gross as it erodes and therefore the German markings were the last application.

Whilst a further film/promo cannot be ruled out in the UK post BoB it is more likely that whilst in the care of the Victory Air Museum these Buchons were painted firstly as Spitfires/Hurricanes, crudely and inaccurately, and then as Me109s for a US based film/doco etc.

That said, RAF Bovingdon, the engineering base for the wind down after the film was always traditionally a location for filming, 'War Lover', '633 and Mosquito', 'Hanover Street' etc...home territory for Hamish Mahaddie.

PeterA

[JDK]

Good spot, Peter.

On a tangent, I understood he Hurrischmitts were used in the 'Repeat please...' Polish scene, but not on the ground in the Battle of France opener.

'Steer...?'