Who Qualifies As A War Hero?

gemmer · **Joined:** Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:54 am **Posts:** 314

muddyboots wrote:

Django wrote:

EASY. The ones who didn't come back.

Rest were just doing their job. Ask any of them... that's usually the answer they give.

Bang on.

But Bill's right. I think Bill is looking more for a definition:
For the MOH
conspicuously by gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States…"

Quote:

A hero (from Greek ἥρως hērōs[1]), in Greek mythology and folklore, was originally a demigod[2], the offspring of a mortal and a deity,[3] their cult being one of the most distinctive features of ancient Greek religion.

Later, hero (male) and heroine (female) came to refer to characters (fictional or historical) that, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self-sacrifice – that is, heroism – for some greater good, originally of martial courage or excellence but extended to more general moral excellence.

I think McCain qualifies. I hate his guts, but he is indeed a hero. And honestly, a hero can later perform acts of incredible evil and still be a hero. He's just a fallen hero.

We dont normally think of Tim McVey as a hero. but he earned a bronze star with the V on it during Desert storm. He preformed heroic acts in teh service of his country. Hero. And then he performed an act of incredible evil after he grew to feel his counrty had abandoned him: fallen hero.
Who was the fighter pilot turned politician who was convicted of bribe taking not to long ago The ace? Fallen hero.

McCain offered his life in the service of his country. That alone doesn't make him a hero in my book. Everybody should do it. It's in my opinion one of the basic qualificatios for being a citizen: that you act in the best interests of your nation, even when it will hurt you. Taxes are not heroic. But we all should pay them in order that the nation do well. Not the government: the nation.

THose who don't serve out of laziness or cowardice or just because they don't like the idea are not military heros. But like MLK, they migh tstill be heroes, even, as BW pointed out, they do things they believe to be in the common interest which many polilticains have painted as not in the natinal interest.

McCain went through some brutal things as a pilot and later a prisoner. He was shot down and he was in tha fire. But those things don't make him a hero. They were not actions aboce and beyond the call of duty. And every citizen owes duty to his nation. After he was shot down, I believe he DID perform above and beyond the call of duty. I don't even believe his turning down an offer to go home made him heroic. He was made he offer soley due to his fathers position. He didn't deserve to go home before other men who had been there longer. There was an order to who went home: longer terms in the camp meant earlier release.

What makes him a hero is that he refused to sign a statement condemning the US for a long time. It cost him a good deal of torture. He stood up for his fellow inmates when it was not his duty to do so, beyond the common duty of humanity. The price he paid for it was far beyond the call of duty. He knowingly sacrificed of himself tha others might live. THAT is a hero.

I'm not sure I have ever heard of any other actions he undertook which qualify him as a hero, if you remove the service to his country thing. Living through a random accident (being shot down) does not make you a hreo. It makes you a luck sumbitch. Turning down an offer you don't deserve doesn't make you a hero. It makes you honorable. Only when you perform an act of selfless sacrifice above and beyond what any citizen should do are you a hero.

There was a guy who ran through fire and grabbed me and pulled me out of a very bad place once. It was not his job to do it, he was simply unwilling to see me die without trying. HE is my hero.

NORMALLY think of McVeigh as a hero??? NORMALLY????? You can love or hate McCain and access his war record as you see fit. But how do you call that animal a hero and minimize his rational for what he did by saying he felt that his country had abandoned him? Do you feel abandoned too?

Duane

rwdfresno · **Posted:** Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:35 pm

Broken-Wrench wrote:

Libero Della Piana: on MLK and his legacy

MLK was a her with the communist part usa! :lol:

Archive Struggles African-American Equality
Author: Libero Della Piana, New York State Chair
First published 02/08/2008 14:43 by {article_topic_desc}

As part of a series of Black History Month conversations, Libero Della Piana, Chair of the New York State Communist Party, speaks about the radical legacy of Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Della Piana references King's famous "Beyond Vietnam" Speech made at The Riverside Church in Manhattan on April 4, 1967 where he called for "revolution of values" and an end to the U.S. war in Vietnam. He also refers to King's final book "Where Do We Go From Here: Chaos or Community?" which called for a guaranteed national income.

Broken Wrench, take off the tin foil hat you'll get better reception!

fotobass · **Posted:** Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:35 pm

Good question, Django, but I'd have to think they can. Saburo Sakai, Adolf Galland, Richard Bong and Gabby Gabreski? I'd have to include all of them. I'd have to research definitions, but I would have to believe that you can be a hero on the wrong side as well.

Here's a logical extension of that...the perpetrators of the Malmedy Massacre. Certainly some of the SS fought heroically IN OTHER SITUATIONS (before I get accused of being an SS supporter), but were clearly heinous in their actions that day.

Similarly, Capt. Ronald Spiers killed prisoners, yet was amazingly heroic in the battle at Foy, taking over and saving the assault and numerous American lives.

I'm not taking a position here, BTW. I'm talking my way through the thought process, and certainly that's what the internet is for, right?

muddyboots · **Posted:** Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:40 pm

well, an anthropologist would say no. Headhunters are a society to be studied and as such value judgements are wrong (unscientific).
However from a purely social opint of view, I think it depend son what the enemy espouses.In WWI fighter pilots often made gestures to recognize the other sides heroism. The cultures were'nt so deifferent as to be alien.
I would not be so fast to make a hero out of say...Adolp Galland a hero. He as, after all, supporting and actively aiding actions he knew to be wrong (invading oter countroes purely for Germanies ecomomic gain and as revenge for losing WWI.

muddyboots · **Posted:** Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:49 pm

gemmer wrote:

NORMALLY think of McVeigh as a hero??? NORMALLY????? You can love or hate McCain and access his war record as you see fit. But how do you call that animal a hero and minimize his rational for what he did by saying he felt that his country had abandoned him? Do you feel abandoned too?

Duane

Quote:

We dont normally think of Tim McVey as a hero. but he earned a bronze star with the V on it during Desert storm.///
He performed heroic acts in teh service of his country. Hero. And then he performed an act of incredible evil after he grew to feel his counrty had abandoned him: fallen hero.

Duane, the United States Army defined him as a hero in 1992. They awarded him for it. The V stands for VALOR, bud. That he went insane and became a monster later does not remove his heroic actions before he went insane. Hence FALLEN hero. I am, btw, INSULTED that you would both take one word out of context and use it in the way you did. It was rude, crass, and unneeded. Find someone else to throw your nasty at.

And yes, in some ways I do feel abandoned. But that is the way this country works: Use your men and then forget them. I wouldn't have it any other way, really. It prevents us from becoming a military junta like so many other countries do. And personally, I'd rather drop back into the anonymity of normal life than be treated as some sort of freak because I did things anybody else would have had to do had they been serving their country in the way that I did. That I feel abandoned (gratefully) by society doesn't mean I have a right to go murder people for it. Hence INSANE.

Hellcat · **Posted:** Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:02 pm

Well, not surprising this thread is beginning to crash and burn. saw it coming. .... :wink:

... I think the definition of a hero is one who can survive one of Bill Greenwood's, not mean't to be, but really is a politically charged thread ... haha ....

....

fotobass · **Posted:** Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:07 pm

Hellcat wrote:

Well, not surprising this thread is beginning to crash and burn. saw it coming. .... :wink:

... I think the definition of a hero is one who can survive one of Bill Greenwood's, not mean't to be, but really is a politically charged thread ... haha ....

....

Yo, man...we're trying to keep it civil in here.

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:15 pm

Guys, just to keep it in focus; what I was asking about was what qualifies anyone as a WAR HERO. It doesn't include whether they were a good citizen or a good person or good leader later in civilian life. That is another kind of hero or villain. And it is not about John McCain individually so much.
As for Tim McVeigh, I don't know the details of his military service, but he could have been a hero in combat during the war, and later his anger or delusion or obsession took over.

Robbie Roberts · **Posted:** Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:19 pm

McCain is a hero to me- but then, ALL US vets who were POW's are heroes to me. If you fought and lived, You did good. If you fought and died, I respect and appreciate your valor and your sacrifice. But to live, and be essentially dead by imprisonment, allowed to live only as long as it suits the desire of your captors, and still be able to survive, that is a Hero to me. I know a few POWs from WWII- they ALWAYS have my attention when we talk. They made a sacrifice most will never know or fully appreciate...

As to other heroes, I cite Boyington...

Robbie

k5083 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:25 pm

I haven't had much use for the word "hero" since I was 10 or 12 years old, so I can have a little fun with it. I see a number of different grounds out there in popular discourse for defining a war hero.

1. ANY WARRIOR. If you're called upon to do your duty and you do it, you're a hero. If you refuse and evade your duty, you're a coward. That doesn't leave too much room in the middle for ordinary folks, but so be it. Oh, and if you were awarded 3 Purple Hearts but some other guys say you don't deserve all of them, you can still be a coward even though you meet the criteria to be a hero.

2. NATIONALISTIC. Our guys are heroes, especially the ones who are the most dedicated and self-sacrificing. Their guys are not, and the ones who are most dedicated and self-sacrificing are "fanatics".

3. HUMANITARIAN. This is the one I come closest to supporting. Being good at killing, risking your life, getting killed or captured, etc. don't make you a hero, but some exceptional act of sacrifice to save another human being does. Whether it be saving a comrade-in-arms, sparing a civilian, or even showing mercy toward a defeated enemy. This type of heroism has nothing to do with war; the opportunity can arise any time. For me, the sight of sports "hero" Yao Ming parading around with that kid who pulled some of his buddies out of the rubble in the Sichuan earthquake at the beginning of the Olympics was very instructive on the subject of heroism. That little kid is as much a hero as any warrior who ever lived and more than McCain.

Boyington was right in saying "Just name a hero and I'll prove he's a bum." I don't think he was being modest on behalf of himself or heroes generally. He meant that heroes all turn out to be flawed ordinary humans if examined closely. We manufacture heroes for our own purposes, and they're a dangerous product. Nobody outside of comic books really deserves the kind of unqualified admiration that I associate with the word "hero."

August

oscardeuce · **Joined:** Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:34 am **Posts:** 1021

HOw about Police, Fire, EMS, Nurses, Physicians. All put thier lives on the line, and have dedicated their lives to serving others.

Hellcat · **Posted:** Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:41 pm

k5083 wrote:

I haven't had much use for the word "hero" since I was 10 or 12 years old, so I can have a little fun with it. I see a number of different grounds out there in popular discourse for defining a war hero.

1. ANY WARRIOR. If you're called upon to do your duty and you do it, you're a hero. If you refuse and evade your duty, you're a coward. That doesn't leave too much room in the middle for ordinary folks, but so be it. Oh, and if you were awarded 3 Purple Hearts but some other guys say you don't deserve all of them, you can still be a coward even though you meet the criteria to be a hero.

2. NATIONALISTIC. Our guys are heroes, especially the ones who are the most dedicated and self-sacrificing. Their guys are not, and the ones who are most dedicated and self-sacrificing are "fanatics".

3. HUMANITARIAN. This is the one I come closest to supporting. Being good at killing, risking your life, getting killed or captured, etc. don't make you a hero, but some exceptional act of sacrifice to save another human being does. Whether it be saving a comrade-in-arms, sparing a civilian, or even showing mercy toward a defeated enemy. This type of heroism has nothing to do with war; the opportunity can arise any time. For me, the sight of sports "hero" Yao Ming parading around with that kid who pulled some of his buddies out of the rubble in the Sichuan earthquake at the beginning of the Olympics was very instructive on the subject of heroism. That little kid is as much a hero as any warrior who ever lived and more than McCain.

Boyington was right in saying "Just name a hero and I'll prove he's a bum." I don't think he was being modest on behalf of himself or heroes generally. He meant that heroes all turn out to be flawed ordinary humans if examined closely. We manufacture heroes for our own purposes, and they're a dangerous product. Nobody outside of comic books really deserves the kind of unqualified admiration that I associate with the word "hero."

August

I'm having a difficult time with your post. You say ...

Quote:

I haven't had much use for the word "hero" since I was 10 or 12 years old

And then you state ...

Quote:

HUMANITARIAN. This is the one I come closest to supporting

And then you state ...

Quote:

Nobody outside of comic books really deserves the kind of unqualified admiration that I associate with the word "hero."

I would have to respectfully state to try to clear your post in my mind ...

All the events of September 11, 2001

k5083 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:52 pm

Okay Hellcat, simply put, I don't believe in heroes but the people who come closest, in my mind, are those who do something extraordinary to save someone else. Whether in war or peace.

August

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:58 pm

Sorry, I work with heroes every night.

fotobass · **Posted:** Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:03 pm

Okay, August...you have a fairly narrow definition then. That's fair...so someone who smothered a grenade WOULD apply, but what about someone who made a solo assault on a heavily defended position?

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