Jane
Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:40 pm
Robbie, two things about Jane Fonda, first she said the war was wrong at great personal cost to her. She already had a Tony and an Oscar, she had nothing to gain other than doing what she thought was right, unless she was some kind of undercover agent for our govt. She could have set around a la Marilyn Monroe and waved the flag. Second, she has apologized to vets, not for opposing the war, not for going to Nam, but for the scene on the antiaircraft gun.
Have you heard any apology from LBJ or Nixon for the 350,000 American casualties they caused us?
I have read pro war vets who claim the POWs were treated badly due to her visit. Does this claim hold up to the light of day? Were the POWs well treated in the years before 1972 when she went? Also is it logical to believe that the NVA/VC made major policy decisions based on one young American actress did or said?
Have you heard any apology from LBJ or Nixon for the 350,000 American casualties they caused us?
I have read pro war vets who claim the POWs were treated badly due to her visit. Does this claim hold up to the light of day? Were the POWs well treated in the years before 1972 when she went? Also is it logical to believe that the NVA/VC made major policy decisions based on one young American actress did or said?
Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:02 pm
Bill, let's not even get into tthat mindset. THey can't forgive an actress who was young and trying to do something of value with her fame by protesting the war (however stupidly.) THese are, after alll, the same people who refuse to admit that it was a failure from day one and think that the GI's who fought there were betrayed by the folks who demanded an end to the war. You can bet the same people will be claiming we could have "won" Iraq had they been allowed to play it their way. They don't see Vietnam as a tragedy on a global scale and a betrayal of our nation by its leadership, they see it as a betrayal by the Jews and American Commies and liberals.
It's like Jake La Matte in his old age saying "I coulda been a contenda," over and over. Well, no, Jake, you couldn't. You weren't smart enough to play the game. You can't just stand there and swing and take the punches. You can't win the fight in the ring if you aren't playing the REST of the game smart.
So instead of admitting we failed ourselves there, they blame Jane and Westmoreland and this guy for not letting us nuke Hanoi, and that guy for not letting us invade two other countries, and taht dude for not mining a harbor used by ships of every flag...No, we were betrayed.
I think we WERE betrayed actually. We were betrayed by the half the nation too hard headed to admit they were wrong and demand that we pull out five years earlier when it became obvious that the Vietnamese people didn't give a darn who ran the country as long as we weren't shooting them and they had enough to eat.
It's like Jake La Matte in his old age saying "I coulda been a contenda," over and over. Well, no, Jake, you couldn't. You weren't smart enough to play the game. You can't just stand there and swing and take the punches. You can't win the fight in the ring if you aren't playing the REST of the game smart.
So instead of admitting we failed ourselves there, they blame Jane and Westmoreland and this guy for not letting us nuke Hanoi, and that guy for not letting us invade two other countries, and taht dude for not mining a harbor used by ships of every flag...No, we were betrayed.
I think we WERE betrayed actually. We were betrayed by the half the nation too hard headed to admit they were wrong and demand that we pull out five years earlier when it became obvious that the Vietnamese people didn't give a darn who ran the country as long as we weren't shooting them and they had enough to eat.
Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:11 pm
Robbie Roberts wrote:Warbird Kid wrote:Breaks my heart watchin that video. I think it does for all of us.
I can barely watch it. I can tell you almost to a GPS coordinate where I was that moment, and much of the rest of the day. The following month or so are blank. Completely.
I think that should be shown in every movie theatre before every movie, to remind people how vulnerable we still are.
Same thing my dad says. I remember being in High School on that infamous day. They didn't let us watch TV while we were still in school.
Its still a sad state of affairs in where theirs considerable speculation as to if it may have been our own government that brought it all on. What a world...
Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:26 pm
[quote="Warbird Kid]Its still a sad state of affairs in where theirs considerable speculation as to if it may have been our own government that brought it all on. What a world...[/quote]
THAT IS A LIE! Sorry I have to yell, but there are a lot of people with devious, sick agendas who are perpetrating that trash. The US Government had nothing to do with 9/11.
PERIOD>
Robbie
THAT IS A LIE! Sorry I have to yell, but there are a lot of people with devious, sick agendas who are perpetrating that trash. The US Government had nothing to do with 9/11.
PERIOD>
Robbie
Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:36 pm
Robbie, is it a lie that we helped arm the Taliban? That afte rdesert storm we stationed troops in Saudi Arabia in at last partly in order to help the House of Saud Maintain order? Is it somehow a lie that Bin Laden started fighting this war to make us leave Saudi Arabia, and it has grown into a global Jihad as a result of that fight?
All true. All documentable. So yeah, we did start the ball rolling.
What we did NOT do is "stage it" or set explosives in a building to blow it up and garner attention. Itw asn't a cruise missile that hit the Pentagon, nore taht field in Pennsylvania. It was not a move, or a lie, or something we made any sort of "arrangement" to make it happen.
What DID happen is we tried to stabilize the oil economy by lending a hand to a government that was not liked by some of its subjects, and especially didn't like heathens like us interfeering in their internal issues. And by internal issues I mean evil rebellion. We tried tyo extend the hand of liberty to a people who weren't yet ready to be free. And we got bit. Hard.
All true. All documentable. So yeah, we did start the ball rolling.
What we did NOT do is "stage it" or set explosives in a building to blow it up and garner attention. Itw asn't a cruise missile that hit the Pentagon, nore taht field in Pennsylvania. It was not a move, or a lie, or something we made any sort of "arrangement" to make it happen.
What DID happen is we tried to stabilize the oil economy by lending a hand to a government that was not liked by some of its subjects, and especially didn't like heathens like us interfeering in their internal issues. And by internal issues I mean evil rebellion. We tried tyo extend the hand of liberty to a people who weren't yet ready to be free. And we got bit. Hard.
Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:45 pm
Robbie,
I don't blame you for "yelling" so to speak. This is a topic no one really wants to bring up at the dinner table, and rightfully so. Im also pretty sure everyone takes one side or the other on this one. Its a terrible thought to think that our own leaders could have done such a thing, but everyone does have their opinions. Maybe I'm just one of those naive college students, but for me, thats the conclusion I've come to for now. Im not stating that we need to believe blindly in every conspiracy theory, but to at least try and look at them with unbiased opinion and take what we can learn.
Always look towards the horizon,
Chris
I don't blame you for "yelling" so to speak. This is a topic no one really wants to bring up at the dinner table, and rightfully so. Im also pretty sure everyone takes one side or the other on this one. Its a terrible thought to think that our own leaders could have done such a thing, but everyone does have their opinions. Maybe I'm just one of those naive college students, but for me, thats the conclusion I've come to for now. Im not stating that we need to believe blindly in every conspiracy theory, but to at least try and look at them with unbiased opinion and take what we can learn.
Always look towards the horizon,
Chris
Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:58 pm
I know this one comes up alot and I'm curious to know what you guys think.
The airliner that went down in PA. Where did the wreckage go?
Example of wreckage from Peru:
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/08/ ... 30x286.jpg
Flight 93 wreckage:
http://www.philipcoppens.com/911_09.jpg
The airliner that went down in PA. Where did the wreckage go?
Example of wreckage from Peru:
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/08/ ... 30x286.jpg
Flight 93 wreckage:
http://www.philipcoppens.com/911_09.jpg
Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:45 pm
Chris, there was debris found.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 200062.jpg
THere was about 600 pounds of flesh found on site, the largest piece being a hunk of someone's spinal chord. When it hit, it drove pieces of wreckage 25 and more feet into theground, and hunks of it flew literally miles away from the impact site.
When you dive 127 tones of aluminiom into the ground at several hundred miles an hour, it's going to disintegrate. THE planes at the WTC shed pieces all over the place. The engines went through the building, as did the landing gear. Look at the crash site. You can make out the outline of the plane as it hit, just like you coudl see it at the WTC. And ook around the hole. You can see lots of bits on the ground.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 3Crash.jpg
At Pennsylvania all the heavy stuff was just driven into the ground. Plus, too many people SAW it. Conspiracy theorists are always making crap up, like tat the lady who shot the smoke plume digitally rendered the shot.
THey claim that it's not the right color. ANY pilot will tell you that clouds change color due to teh time of day, humidity, and angle from which you see them It's not a freaking bomb or gunpowder. It's a plane.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 200062.jpg
THere was about 600 pounds of flesh found on site, the largest piece being a hunk of someone's spinal chord. When it hit, it drove pieces of wreckage 25 and more feet into theground, and hunks of it flew literally miles away from the impact site.
When you dive 127 tones of aluminiom into the ground at several hundred miles an hour, it's going to disintegrate. THE planes at the WTC shed pieces all over the place. The engines went through the building, as did the landing gear. Look at the crash site. You can make out the outline of the plane as it hit, just like you coudl see it at the WTC. And ook around the hole. You can see lots of bits on the ground.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 3Crash.jpg
At Pennsylvania all the heavy stuff was just driven into the ground. Plus, too many people SAW it. Conspiracy theorists are always making crap up, like tat the lady who shot the smoke plume digitally rendered the shot.
THey claim that it's not the right color. ANY pilot will tell you that clouds change color due to teh time of day, humidity, and angle from which you see them It's not a freaking bomb or gunpowder. It's a plane.
Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:12 pm
The airliners that hit the WTC were definitely airliners. There's no question about that.
But this pic.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 200062.jpg
Doesn't seem quite substantial. Maybe its just the fact that i don't know the velocity that the airliner went in, but i truly don't see enough to negate the fact that it might have been somthing else. Regardless, the lives lost that day will never be returned which is the ultimate sadness.
Before this thread goes on, i just wanna let you both know, Robbie and Muddy, (and whoever else chimes in on this one) that i ALWAYS respect your opinions.
"I'm a human being God@#$%^&!, My life has Value!" -Peter Finch as Howard Beale in Network 1976
I hope our world will evolve to a level where this kind of thing never happens again.
But this pic.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 200062.jpg
Doesn't seem quite substantial. Maybe its just the fact that i don't know the velocity that the airliner went in, but i truly don't see enough to negate the fact that it might have been somthing else. Regardless, the lives lost that day will never be returned which is the ultimate sadness.
Before this thread goes on, i just wanna let you both know, Robbie and Muddy, (and whoever else chimes in on this one) that i ALWAYS respect your opinions.
"I'm a human being God@#$%^&!, My life has Value!" -Peter Finch as Howard Beale in Network 1976
I hope our world will evolve to a level where this kind of thing never happens again.
Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:32 pm
While it is vaguely possible that the plane was shot down, or that it was a martian spaceship, or that the people of atlantis arranged it, I think we can safely say it was a UA aircraft that arbored in. I wan't tehre so I can't prove it. But it just seems weird to me that the large number of people that would have to be involced to plan, carry out, and tehn conceal the planning and working of this deed could manage to do so> Somebody always talks.
Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:36 pm
When an aircraft impacts the ground at high speed, and with a large load of fuel, it tends to not leave very big pieces. Especially when that load of fuel cooks off. Aluminum has a melting point, and aircraft aluminum is VERY thin(I work in the aviation industry, and know this as a fact) Thin aluminum, coupled with high heat equals not much left. Ever stomp a tin can flat? a crash can have the same effect on an aircraft- and the tin can was thicker to atart with!(average thickness of aircraft aluminium is around .032" thick...)
Robbie
Robbie
Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:38 pm
OMFG! Robbie and I agreed on something in this thread!
Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:40 pm
what I find sadly beautiful is this: If I went back out there with a strainer and just started doing a surface scrape, I'd find pounds and pounds of aluminium, bone and plastic that they didn't bother to pick up. It's all still there, becoming part of the earth again.
Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:31 pm
muddyboots wrote:OMFG! Robbie and I agreed on something in this thread!
Ya see? You have me to thank for that!
All well in good points sirs.
Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:17 am
[quote="muddyboots"]yah, I'm back home in the south. All I have had to do today was walk the dog and sweep up piles of leave and chainsaw a few logs over the road and pull them out with my truck. All the neighbors think I'm the shiz now 
[/quote]
I think I would have left also... It is really congested out there.. Lights everywhere at night.. It seems like there would be more opertunity down south than in LA.. I had alot of freinds go down to your neck of the woods for work.
[/quote]
I think I would have left also... It is really congested out there.. Lights everywhere at night.. It seems like there would be more opertunity down south than in LA.. I had alot of freinds go down to your neck of the woods for work.