B-17 Turret Question

[warbirdguy]

*EDIT*

Which B-17's flying today don't have a full top turret (just a top dome)? IIRC Yankee Lady doesn't.

Last edited by warbirdguy on Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

[Pooner]

Without sounding flip, I'd say the direct answer to your question is "all of them."

Quite simply, that's because the Sperry upper turret is a rather complex and horribly cramped spot with all of the original factory furnished equipment (specifically the K-3 gyroscopic gunsight, the cables, oxygen connect equipment, etc.) installed. The fully-kitted turret just doesn't lend well at all for visitors on the flight deck to get inside and have a good look about above it all in the turret dome without being a contortionist - especially visitors who are in excess of 175 pounds and 5'9" or so in build.

I'm very familiar with at least two touring B-17s and their upper Sperry turrets - both Collings' 909 and AZ Wing Sentimental Journey have turrets that while no where near 100 percent "combat" complete are operational or retain a good percentage of original equipment AND give visitors a little wiggle room inside. Sort of a "best of both worlds" scenario.

But I think the true nature of your question - upon a re-read - was which operational airframes have a turret position with "dome only." I'm sure others will weigh-in accordingly. I'm hoping that perhaps as I read your post it's because you've found the skeletal remains of a Sperry upper somewhere in a barn or a junk pile and would like to see it back on an airframe? Hey - let a fellow have his dreams, will ya?

[astixjr]

I'm not 100% sure but I think the EAA's B-17G just has a type 6 Ainsworth dome only, no guts installed. Of course they may have the rest of it in storage. I think the Collings B-17G has a Sperry Type A1 with a replica Type 6 dome. I think the A1 is the earliest model Sperry upper built so they were probably never installed in G models. Still, they are lucky to have one at all. Sperry upper turrets are very hard to find.

As far as I can determine, the Sperry upper is just as rare as the Sperry Ball turret, maybe more rare. The Sperry Ball turrets were used on B-24s and and maybe B-32s so they built a bunch of the Ball turrets. I think the B-17 was the only bomber that used the Sperry upper in any quantity.

As far as non-flyers, I think Pima Aviation Museum's B-17G only has a dome installed. The B-17G at the Air Force Armament Museum in FL only has an upper dome and I think it's a replica.

I have lots of small parts for the Sperry upper but very little of the main structure. One of the problems that I've encountered in trying to sort and ID Sperry upper turret parts is that from the first model, the A1, to the last model built, there were enough changes along the way that not many of the parts will interchange. One of the WWII manuals I have actually contains information on four different models and six different dome types. Do you know where a project Sperry upper is located? If you do, try to buy it! Many B-17s, both flyers, statics, and projects need one.

Last edited by astixjr on Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[warbirdguy]

Thanks for replying, I was talking about the top glass dome which you questioned in your replies. I changed my question accordingly.

[Pooner]

(Seems that Al and Robert both had a simultaneous vision of someone finding a Sperry upper turret frame sitting about un-attended in a junkyard....)

[Elroy13]

Liberty Belle does not have the guts to their top turret. Lone Star's THUNDERBIRD does have the guts.

[Second Air Force]

Texas Raiders has been touring with just the dome in place. Either the Navy or private owners completely removed all traces of the support structure and upper ring fittings. The GCW have a great looking turret sitting on a test stand that took real diligence to build up. Spanner can fill you in with more information, but I am researching the structural hurdles that would have to be jumped in order to install the turret. The guys had to scratchbuild the main support frames, and they turned out fantastic.

[astixjr]

(Seems that Al and Robert both had a simultaneous vision of someone finding a Sperry upper turret frame sitting about un-attended in a junkyard....)

No Doubt About That! What's that special alloy they were built of again? Oh yeah, Unobtainium.

[SPANNERmkV]

You just prompted me to post some top turret photos and a brief tribute on the TEXAS RAIDERS thread.

Have a great weekend,

SPANNER

[Steve Nelson]

Both Fuddy Duddy and Aluminum Overcast only have the upper dome with fake guns mounted (and the last time I saw her, Fuddy Duddy only had the lower half of a ball turret attached to the underside of the fuselage.)

Here are some snasphots looking into the cockpit of B-17E "My Gal Sal," (a non-flyer) which has the complete upper turret. Gives you an idea of how cramped it is with the turret in place

SN

[K5DH]

Chuckie has only a replica dome and replica gun barrels. The ceiling of the flight deck is skinned over, and the dome sits atop the skin. We have in storage a partial top turret assembly, but it's in poor shape and would need a huge amount of work. There are no plans to restore and install it any time soon. And no, it's not for sale, so please don't ask. Neither is our ball turret.

Cheers!

[Bluedharma]

As stated before... Aluminum Overcast has nothing.




Regards,

[tom d. friedman]

with fuel economy factored in it only makes sense with all the needless weight of useless hardware.

[Pooner]

Useless hardware? Geeez. Loud groan from Pooner at the end of the bar.

Aw, c'mon, man. If you've got the pieces to restore it, you are obligated to stick it in. That's what the name of the game is all about - and if you don't have it, well, keep looking. That's job of any restoration's "parts whores" - seek, find, restore and hang the darn thing. The "fuel lump" ya'll might save in a "dome only" versus a "complete turret" is soooooo negligable in light of the merits of a correct restoration. In my opinion if you wanna airplane with lots of windows for the folks to look out of without interruption, obstruction or corruption, well, that's why God and Mr. Douglas came together and gave birth to the DC-3.... Plenty of pretty window seats to stick your grinnin' pumpkin out of...

If we were all concerned about fuel economy, we'd never be doing this stuff in the first place... and if we were REALLY historically correct and worrying over fuel consumption/combat a/c weight/mission duration as calculated with the help of that load adjuster up there in the cockpit, our flight crews would not be in excess of 180 pounds per man with uniforms and gub'ment furnished parachutes, flight suits and chonies... right?

The turret freaks among us lot are a little odd, admittedly, but you're gonna get a beer bottle tossed at your head for making a blanket statement like that!

[tom d. friedman]

Useless hardware? Geeez. Loud groan from Pooner at the end of the bar.

Aw, c'mon, man. If you've got the pieces to restore it, you are obligated to stick it in. That's what the name of the game is all about - and if you don't have it, well, keep looking. That's job of any restoration's "parts whores" - seek, find, restore and hang the darn thing. The "fuel lump" ya'll might save in a "dome only" versus a "complete turret" is soooooo negligable in light of the merits of a correct restoration. In my opinion if you wanna airplane with lots of windows for the folks to look out of without interruption, obstruction or corruption, well, that's why God and Mr. Douglas came together and gave birth to the DC-3.... Plenty of pretty window seats to stick your grinnin' pumpkin out of...

If we were all concerned about fuel economy, we'd never be doing this stuff in the first place... and if we were REALLY historically correct and worrying over fuel consumption/combat a/c weight/mission duration as calculated with the help of that load adjuster up there in the cockpit, our flight crews would not be in excess of 180 pounds per man with uniforms and gub'ment furnished parachutes, flight suits and chonies... right?

The turret freaks among us lot are a little odd, admittedly, but you're gonna get a beer bottle tossed at your head for making a blanket statement like that!

pooner, you make many valid points, but most museums & warbird foundations are $$$$$ wise strapped these days. i'm all for historical accuracy just like you, but money talks & b.s. walks & these associations have to make due with a wallet that has a bottom. i greatly admire your enthusiasm best, tom