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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:42 pm 
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In ww2 Japanese submarines floatplanes flew over Australia on a common basis doing recon work and who knows whatesle.

These floatplanes launched from off the oast and flew in most cases undetected or not checked apon over najor capital areas such as Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne. Reports also say other coastal areas were checked out all along the eatern seaboard.

As everyone knows Australia suffered its Pearl Harbour attack in 1942 when Japanese submarines attacked Sydney Harbour sinking a Australian Navy ship and killing 19 sailors.

This is on top of around 30 cargo ships sunk by Japanese on eastern coast thru out the war and shelling of Sydney and Newcastle by the Japanese submarines themselves....

I have heard there are wrecks of floatplanes off Sydney coast about 20km off shore?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:47 pm 
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probably the small twin pontooned plane code named "glen" seaplane........ also used from japanese subs a few times off the coast of oregon early in the war, certainly not the seiran which was supposed to bomb the panama canal at the end of the war to delay usn shipping from reaching the pacific. 1 seiran survives at the smithsonian museum. i don't believe any glen's survive.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:02 am 
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It "existed" but is not likely to be found surviving, either on the coast, nor at 200M below the sea.


http://www.museum.wa.gov.au/collections/maritime/march/fallenangels/nsw/tims_report.doc+sydney+japanese+floatplane&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=19&gl=au

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The State’s most significant aircraft wreck site is arguably that of the Japanese floatplane used to ‘spot’ fleet dispositions within Sydney harbour prior to the notorious Japanese midget submarine raid of 31 May 1942. This aircraft, a two-seater Yokosuka E.14Y1 “Glen” floatplane, was launched from the carrier submarine, I-22, when stationed north-east of Sydney. The still unlocated aircraft capsized when returning from its mission, the crew rescued but the plane scuttled. This incident represents the only Axis aircraft lost in combat in NSW. It, with the still missing third Japanese midget submarine, remain as unique reminders of this infamous raid.



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Japanese Yokosuka E14Y1 ‘Glen’, off Sydney, 1942
Arguably the most historic aircraft loss in New South Wales, the capsizing of this aircraft on 30 May 1942, is closely associated with the Japanese midget submarine raid at Sydney on 31 May 1942. Piloted by Flying Warrant Officer Susumo Ito and with Iwasaki as navigator, the two-seater single wing aircraft was carried aboard the submarine 1-21.
Of the five 108 metre long I-15 class (Type B1) submarines in the Eastern (Sydney) Attack Group (Hervieux, 1978 a & b), three carried midget submarines, I-22, I-24 and I-27. I-21 and I-29 carried single float planes in a hangar forward of the conning tower. I–29 had earlier fatally damaged its plane during a flight over Sydney on 23 May 1942 (Jenkins, 1992:18).


Ito launched his dark green aircraft from I-21 (built 1939 at Kobe) approximately 35 nautical miles north east of Sydney (Clarke, 1966:71). After completing his reconnaissance survey for the impending raid (at one stage just 30 meters above the water adjacent to the heavy cruiser USS Chicago and the Harbour Bridge), Ito attempted to relocate the mother submarine offshore. The early morning darkness caused difficulties as he crossed seaward over North Head at 5am. Failing to find the submarine, the plane returned to Sydney, took bearings from the Macquarie Lighthouse on South Head and continued north east. A short radio message led to the submarine signalling its position. However, the Glen overturned as it landed beside I-21. Safely rescued with their vital information, the Japanese were faced with a dilemma – the sun was soon to rise but the upside-down floatplane refused to sink because of its still buoyant floats. It took the combined efforts of sailors with a hammer and small arms, to sufficiently pierce the floats. The aircraft was reported to have “sunk” (Jenkins, 1992:37).


The final resting place of this historic aircraft has attracted interest over the years. A concerted effort to locate the wreck site was made during the 1990’s by a team led by Mr Phil Dulhunty. Then President of the Seaplane Pilots Association of Australia, Mr Dulhunty was responding to reports by spearfisherman, George Davies, who reported seeing aircraft remains near shore at Pelican Point, Norah Head (Davies,1993). First sighted in the 1950’s, the wreckage was located in a sand gutter and variously exposed or covered until at least the 1970’s (Dulhunty, 1994). It consisted of a mass of cables and wires, while others allegedly reported a radial engine nearby.

The presence of these relics has never been confirmed, nor their similarity to Glen floatplane construction. The association was made because the reported wreckage lay inshore from the approximate meeting place of the floatplane with its submarine carrier, some 35 miles north east of Sydney. The theory required the floatplane to have remained partially buoyant and to have drifted some 20-30 miles inshore to wreck. This is contrary to Ito’s report that the plane was seen to visibly sink, probably in water depths up to 200 meters (Jenkins, 1992: 37). With only the floats keeping the plane on the surface, their eventual holing would have more likely led to the flooded plane dropping vertically through the water column.
The ‘Glen’ was powered by a single 340hp Hitachi Tempu 12, 9-cylinder radial air-cooled engine, with a wing span of 11 metres (32 feet, 9 inches) and fuselage length of 8.54 metres (28-feet). The fuselage was constructed from welded steel tube covered in sheet metal forward and fabric aft. The wings were composed of light metal spars, wooden ribs and fabric covered. A total of 126 aircraft were built (Green, 1962:138ff).



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:21 am 
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if it's their, doubtful it's in good or semi good condition as the glen was built pretty light, & i think it had a number of wood components as well.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 1:23 am 
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A Japanese floatplane, probably from the same submarine, also overflew and photographed Auckland and Wellington and no doubt other areas of New Zealand. However the aircraft was detected by our radar, and the submarine also spotted. The RNZAF went onto full alert several times as it was spooted around the coast and there were several scrambles where reconnaissance bombers were sent to search for the submarine, but they never found it. At one point the submarine went through Cook Strait which is not exactly a wide body of water between the North and South Islands.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:48 pm 
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tom d. friedman wrote:
if it's their, doubtful it's in good or semi good condition as the glen was built pretty light, & i think it had a number of wood components as well.


Hi guys,

I'm late coming into this conversation, I know...Tom is right in that the 'Glen' was very lightly built. But if the plane went into deep water, I think it would still be in semi-good condition.

Here's why- back in April two 'Glen' wrecks were ID'd in a cargo ship at Kwajalein Atoll. I can tell you first-hand that the parts are in remarkably good condition. The wooden ribs in the wing are of course rotted away, but the metal is suprisingly intact and in pretty good shape.

The components on the shipwreck range in depth from 130 feet to 148 feet. If a 'Glen' was dumped off Sydney in 200 meters of water, or 656 feet, I think it would still be in semi-good shape because the water there would of course be deeper and therefore much colder. The average water temp here at 130 feet is 82 to 84 degrees- pretty warm. And yet the parts have survived remarkably well.

I know this is an old topic by now, but I just thought I'd throw that info in there. I think the biggest issue with finding the 'Glen' wreck off Sydney is of course the smallness of the plane, and the area needing searched.

Maybe time to call in Bob Ballard? (the guy who found the Titanic and the Bismarck) :wink:

Cheers all,

Dan


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:33 pm 
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kwajwreckdiver wrote:
I know this is an old topic by now, but I just thought I'd throw that info in there. I think the biggest issue with finding the 'Glen' wreck off Sydney is of course the smallness of the plane, and the area needing searched.

Maybe time to call in Bob Ballard? (the guy who found the Titanic and the Bismarck) :wink:

Cheers all,

Dan

At a tangent, both the 'third' Japanese sub and off the other coast, HSK Kormoran and HMAS Sydney have been found within the least couple of years. All are, of course, much larger and more substantial than any aircraft.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6679393.stm

http://blog.awm.gov.au/awm/2008/03/19/hmas-sydney/

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:29 am 
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Amazing to think they flew over here unchecked, not that surprised though. Would be interesting to read pilot accounts but they'd be long gone no doubt


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:55 am 
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JDK- I'd heard about the Sydney, but not the other ones! Great news!

JagerMarty- there is actually a pilot's account. The same pilot who dropped the bombs in Oregon State also overflew part of Austrailia. Check this link out-

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=937.0

Cheers! :)

Dan


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:07 am 
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kwajwreckdiver wrote:
JDK- I'd heard about the Sydney, but not the other ones! Great news!

The Finding Sydney foundation's website is here: http://www.findingsydney.com/

There are remains of Syndey's Supermarine Walrus, but no photos as yet. I doubt much would be identifiable, the Walrus being lightly constructed. HSK Kormoran apparently had two Arado Ar 196 seaplanes - I have no info on those, but we'd know where they were if they were still aboard.

I don't know of a website for the 'third' Sydney harbour sub.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:51 am 
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kwajwreckdiver wrote:
If a 'Glen' was dumped off Sydney in 200 meters of water, or 656 feet, I think it would still be in semi-good shape because the water there would of course be deeper and therefore much colder.

As well as the benefit of reduced oxygen and salinity levels. Hopefully out of the range and depth of
fishing dredges as well. :shock:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:55 am 
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JägerMarty wrote:
Amazing to think they flew over here unchecked, not that surprised though. Would be interesting to read pilot accounts but they'd be long gone no doubt


That's a good point, I wonder if any of those submarine pilots who overflew Australian and New Zealand ports and cities ever recorded their memories after the war. That would be interesting.

I have spoken to a few pilots and aircrew in the research of my book who were involved in being sent on scrambles when the submarine was spotted in NZ waters. They'd go out for 4 or 5 hours in their Vicjers Vincent biplanes and not see a thing. I was also told be a groundcrew member, who sadly passed away last month, that he recalled No. 2 GR Squadron being abuzz with activity for around a week with extra patrols constantly being launched and the aircrew really working hard but the groundcrew were not told what was happening. At the end of the week the CO, Jack Busch, gathered the squadron together and this chap told me Busch said all week they'd been chasing a submarine in the Tasman Sea and he was pleased to announce they had sunk it.

This however was either a mis-memory by the old guy or a mistake/lie by the CO as no submarines were sunk in NZ waters. It made a great story when he told it, I wonder if it had grown and ben embellished over years of yarns down the Returned Serviceman's club...

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