Warbird Information Exchange

Hello all,
Everybody else has put their 2 cents in, so now its my turn.
I've been around asia a bit (Have an asian wife actually( not Indonesian)).
Setter has definately got the right idea.Go in slow and easy.Take a vacation there. If there are any resorts near your wrecks, all the better
On the first trip, just go as a tourist and sus things out.Meet up with any (western) contacts.Get the feel of the place.Wham,bam thankyou mam is not the asian way.Learn some of the local language,even just the basics.Just this will earn you more respect than waving a fist full of cash around.
In my experience, americans tend to be a bit loud and over the top.(Looking from an asian perspective).So calm, quiet and polite is the way to go.
Indonesia is reported to be one of the most corrupt countries in the world.This is probably good and bad.Sneaking a wreck out is probably possible but being doublecrossed is likely as well.Theres a good chance of bribing your way out of jail and the country if the need arises. Obviously you could never go back.........

The terrorist/security thing would be my biggest worry.Tourist areas are safer because the tourist dollars keep the town alive. police and the locals don't want any incidents because it hurts their income. Away from all that,in the provinces,I would be very wary.The local J.I. dude may not be all that greatful to see you stroll into the local village, miles from anywhere, looking for that bird."Fifty bucks will get you killed" you know?

Really,there must be easier places to get planes from?

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Regards,
R.J.Mitchell

There are only two complete left, that I'm aware of. One downtown Jakarta on display and one with a BT-13 in village kids park outside of town. One in the park has lots of corrosion , missing canopy, broken rudder, elevators, vertical, cockpit gutted, broken windscreen, etc. Good Pattern, Parts and Fittings Aircraft.

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John Lane, Jr.

Chris,

As much as i appreciate this site, this is probably not the right place to get a reliable opinion about security and travel conditions in Indo :

My own little advise :

- Don't listen to any of our own opinions : Most people have never been there and have absolutely no idea how Indonesia really is at present.

- Again do not listen to any of our own opinions : some people like myself have been there many times and like this country so much that their opinion is maybe biaised.

- Contact the Indo embassy in US and ask them franckly about security issues.

- Contact people who have been there recently (but no corporate expat who would feel unsecured anywhere) and ask their opinion. Examples : Rob Greinert has been there recently.

- As some of us explained, use common sence when travelling : don't wear a Stars and Stripes T-shirt, respect their local customs, always travel with a local guide when in isolated spots, ... But you know this already.

- The most obvious : Talk to local Indonesians.

All the best

Laurent

Last I heard, the TNI-AU was not remotely interested in letting wither of the two actual 72-XXXX Cavaliers they have on display go anywhere. Marc K indicated that people had offered some pretty good $$$ in the past to recover them but had been turned down.

Perhaps with different public officials, they'll change their mind?

If only I had a big ol' bankroll and could finance such an operation.

Unfortunately, I have nothing to contribute to such an operation. No funds to finance it, no diplomatic connections to facilitate getting the airframes, no shipping knowledge to get 'em back home, and no restoration skills/space/equipment to work on 'em when I did get them back!!

So...there's a lot of hurdles to this one...but it's a nice dream none the less.

Hello Folks:

Great post here. Thanks for the interest, and enthusiasm.

Chris

Randy:
Once I gather more data, I'll confirm if going near the Cavaliers.

To Airnutz, Ryan, Downunder, Setter, Rohr Ok thanks for the generally sensible info, and the firsthand knoweledge about the region.

Laurent, thanks again. Your Japanese airfield photos look good. It looks like the Japanese generally built straight runways, but the allies apparently build either a triangle pattern or two at a time. Thanks for your contribution to the overall suspicion that something is there. THe exact coordinates to the airfields will aid in obtaining high res satellite photos. They do cost $$, but some money now may save a lot of time and money later.

To Walrus:

I will check with the Indonesian consulate in D.C., and see what is legally required to remove a wrecked plane from Indonesia. A very helpful suggestion

To Mr. Lane, and Swiss Mustangs: It sounds like both of you have first hand, no kidding hands on knowledge on Indonesia specific to finding the types of planes I'm looking for in Indo. I'll have to PM you, and see if you either want to go or who your contacts are.

Lastly to Jeffery:



Well Jeffrey:

We’re dealing with changes before the actual conclusion. So as of currently I have gathered enough data to confirm I will positively go. However, as more data comes available this may shift to an overall negative to the conclusion. I was trying to tell Ryan not to tell me not to go as the data is still positive.

Hello anyone Interested particularly Laurent:

I've got these Celebes Island airfields from j-aircraft, here they are:

Baroe Japan Celebes Celebes Airfield 121°41'0" 4°50'0"
Beo Japan Celebes Celebes Airfield 126°48'0" 4°13'0"
Boeloedowang (Aloe) Japan Celebes Celebes Emergency 119°29'0" 5°33'0"
Boro Boro Japan Celebes Celebes Airfield 122°21'0" 4°5'0"
Kakas Japan Celebes Celebes Seaplane 124°52'0" 1°11'0"
Kendari Japan Celebes Celebes Airfield 122°26'0" 4°6'0"
Kendari Town Japan Celebes Celebes Seaplane 122°40'0" 4°20'0"
Langoan (Menado II) Japan Celebes Celebes Airfield 124°51'0" 1°10'0"
Limboeng Japan Celebes Celebes Airfield 119°26'0" 5°18'0"
Malimpoeng (Pare) (Pinrang) Japan Celebes Celebes Airfield 119°45'0" 3°44'0"
Manado (Menado) Japan Celebes Celebes Seaplane 124°50'0" 1°40'0"
Mandai (Makassar I) Japan Celebes Celebes Airfield 119°32'0" 5°4'0"
Mapanget (Manado I) Japan Celebes Celebes Airfield 124°5'0" 1°33'0"
Pinrang (Pare Pare or Malimpoeng) Japan Celebes Celebes 0°0'0" 0°0'0"
Pomelaa Japan Celebes Celebes Airfield 121°31'0" 4°33'0"
Tiworo Japan Celebes Celebes Airfield 122°30'0" 4°45'0"

Thanks,

Chris

have followed this mile long thread for some time now, as my dad was in the initial invasion of morotai in ww 2 as a rifle company commander, u.s. army, 31st infantry division. naturally, he patrolled the island for the enemy, helped with the mopping up, & his battalion provided a defensive perimeter to the army air force airstrip their. morotai was practically an island aircraft carrier in 1945 after we snagged it from the japanese. it was an important air strip for japan too!! it is my top dream as well to go their!! i want to re-trace my dad's footsteps from new guinea to morotai to mindanoa phillipines. i have done considerable research on the feasability of the visit. i suggest for starters you pick up the book "indonesia" put out by lonely planet publications. you can find the book on the net, or in most big bookstores. well worth the investment. the book is 1 3/4 inches thick!! is as comprehensive as it gets, covers every square inch of indonesia, hits on alot of ww 2 tourist stuff, travel info, do's & don'ts, trip preparation etc. keep in mind this book was put out a few years ago & info changes constantly. for that go to website www.lonelyplanet.com/upgrades for current updates. this book is pre 9/11 terror attack & obviously pre tsunami, but it will really get you organized & help you determine the feasibility of your adventure. normally if i hit the lottery i'd be on the next plane out their, but with all the disaster chaos, EXPLODING DISEASES!! CHOLERA, MALARIA, DYSENTARY ETC to name just a few. then their are the islamic extremists!! they are maniacs, & have no regard for life, ours or theirs!! they are blaming the tsunami on western religions being introduced to the area as a punishment by allah, their god. speaking for myself as an american jewish guy i'd hold off for now till things simmer down. your enthusiasm is infectious, but then so are those diseases & they are not to be taken lightly. transportation is probably at a stand still from the disaster, & you will pay top buck for everything to go tromping around right now. i'd say the deck is thoroughly stacked against you for now!! cool it for a year, do homework, & i'll go with ya in a year or too, no kidding!! regards, tom

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

But you're a pretty experienced pilot and I assume you could eventually be flying the thing after some training!


Yup - nice dream indeed.
Martin

Well, I had hoped my post would be counted as a warning based on very recent information I'd heard. That said, just because I'm warned about a possible danger doesn't mean I am saying you absolutely shouldn't go. In my mind danger does not always equal "I shouldn't go." it just means that someone cares enough to warn me about what they've heard and give me more information.
In fact, if I was in your shoes and had the wherewithall to attempt such an expedition, I might be inclined to try it after I had weighed all the risks and possible benifits .

Ryan

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Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

Ok Ryan

Check

This is true ... I have raised the subject also and didn't get a verbal response , just a 'look' and raised eyebrows from the brass.

WRECK RECOVERIES

For those wanting to do wreck recoveries in Indonesia please don't ask me for contact names , phone numbers and emails of TNI-AU , I have them but I can't give them out. I didn't mean to sound unhelpful to one WIXer but they were given to me on a privelaged basis. If you contacted them they wouldn't answer anyway. I'd love to help but the risk to me personally and to my business is too great.

The best way to start to open doors is via the Indonesian Embassy in Washington, if you can convince them your project has merit and there is some benefit to INDONESIA they will make doors open for you.

You will also need to set up your own company in the name of an Indonesian (this is where it gets tricky) or you will have to use a local agent who is a partner company to TNI-AU as they wont even deal with foreign owned locally owned companies.

Be prepared to LIVE IN INDONESIA for 6 to 12 months or at least fly back EVERY MONTH to make sure things are progressing ... that's how long it takes ! I am bidding on some aircraft now and it has been an ongoing process of weekly follow up meetings since April 2008 (I will post what aircraft when the deal comes off).

Once you have all your paperwork if you think a recovery will take 2 or 3 months it will really take 6 to 12 months. Then you will have issues with local authorities who will try and make your life difficult.

In the old days of the 'New Order' under President Suharto if you had backing from Jakarta you could solve problems with a phone call. Now there is regional autonomy so there is a new level of local government to contend with , so even if you have permission from Jakarta it may not be a simple matter of pulling out your prize if the local governor or chief doesn't like what your doing, if it gets too hard the project will probably stall as people in Jakarta have a country and armed forces to rebuild after 10 yrs of arms embargoes rather than worrying about pulling aircraft out of swamps and airfields.

There are also security clearance issues for foreigners in some provinces ESPECIALLY for Westerners in Irian Jaya and the surrounding islands.

If you think this is all 'bull' go ahead and learn the hard way like I did the last 10 years (living here in Indonesia full time).

One tip : Do a basic course in Bahasa Indonesia before you come here, even basic Indonesian will go a long way to earning the respect of the locals.

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Aussie expat lost in Indonesia

there is too big a proliferation of weapons and most of those weapons end up in the hands of third world toilet savages.
That being said you just do your homework and PAY ATTENTION. If you do that and keep your ears down, your eyes open and your ego in check you should be fine.

A classic example this month ...

Fly 500 miles for a confirmed 10am meeting to do an inspection , wait 4 hours in this officers waiting room , when he arrives he decides to be difficult and says although he knows we have permission and clearance etc the official letter hasn't arrived on his desk , get on the plane and fly home.

I know a lot of foreigners would probably explode in that situation , it happens regularly.

When I did my first project in Indonesia I flew all the way from Sydney to Jakarta for a confirmed meeting and the guy made me wait 3 DAYS (I sat in his waiting room during office hours not back in the hotel) to try and get me angry and make the project fail but I sat there patiently and eventually got to see him.

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Aussie expat lost in Indonesia