Warbird Information Exchange

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on this site are the responsibility of the poster and do not reflect the views of the management.
It is currently Sat Jan 03, 2026 11:07 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Future warbirds..
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:36 pm
Posts: 654
Location: Scotland
Are modern aircraft too complex, expensive and potent to ever be future warbirds? Also are there any more replica manufacture plans in the pipeline like the Yaks, FW-190 or Me-262 that anyone is aware of. Is this the future (how about a run of P-38's or Mossies!) as original airframes become older or more expensive? Just a wee question that I thought might make for some interesting discussion.

_________________
If the first casualty of war is innocence, the second is sobriety - Hawkeye.
Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws - Plato.
Lies get halfway round the world before the truth has a chance to get it's pants on - Churchill
If you are going through he11 - keep going - Churchill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:43 pm 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:10 pm
Posts: 3257
Location: New York
There is a run of Mossies being done. The static test fuselage is on display in Windsor Ont. and the first airworthy one will be for Fighter Factory in Virginia.

There are a number of real P-38s in the pipeline, no need for a new production run just yet.

August


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:52 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:54 am
Posts: 5227
Location: Stratford, CT.
What i say we look at is (maybe by bar graph even) the numer of flyable types of aircraft. Quickly you would see great and dramatic differences between types of aircraft.

For instance: P-51 - bout 120
P-40 - bout 21?

So then in this case why wouldnt we make a new build production line of P-40s? We wouldnt because there are a good number of healthy specimines around. Look at another 'species'. The B-24 or B-26. Nearly extinct. With only a few to show. But what birds have really been lost to time is the majority of the Axis birds. That is where i believe money can be made. Especially if someone decided to produce say the Willow japenese trainer biplane? Now that would be cool.

_________________
Keep Em' Flying,
Christopher Soltis

Dedicated to the preservation and education of The Sikorsky Memorial Airport

CASC Blog Page: http://ctair-space.blogspot.com/
Warbird Wear: https://www.redbubble.com/people/warbirdwear/shop

Chicks Dig Warbirds.......right?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:03 pm 
Offline
2000+ Post Club
2000+ Post Club

Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:27 am
Posts: 2463
Location: Ellerslie Georgia, USA
I mentioned this in a post earlier, and the idea got shotdown like a B-17 over Frankfurt

_________________
Kind Regards,
Gary Lewis
J.A.F.O.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:13 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:08 pm
Posts: 1182
Location: Tulsa, OK
Like anything else in life, I think it all comes down to cost. I'd love to get to see some of the Japanese and other axis fighters that are essentially extinct or only exist as single examples preserved safely in museums. The engineering required to scratch build a new one, or even a run of them, would still result in even the cheapest examples costing in the neighborhood of $1 million and up. As a consequence, it keeps ownership of such aircraft exclusively in the realm of the fairly wealthy. Other than real warbird nerds like us, the question by a newly rich pilot becomes, what can this ___ aircraft give me that a P-51 can't? And would I rather have an aircraft for which there is abundant support, or one that is completly unique and difficult to maintain?

As to the bombers, the problem there becomes operating costs. With operating costs for B-24s and B-17s pushing $3000 and $4000 per hour, even if someone could afford to build a B-24 from scratch how many people would really want to pay the millions to buy one and then pay the millions to operate it?

I think at the end of the day, there may be a few types that get ressurected. They will the exception, however, rather than the rule. I would guess that any extinct or super-rare type that gets replicated is more likely to be the result of a committed group of history and aviation buffs, supported by a huge number of volunteers and financial backers, rather than a group looking to turn a profit.

kevin

_________________
FOUND the elusive DT-built B-24! Woo-hoo!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:36 pm
Posts: 654
Location: Scotland
Quote:
That is where i believe money can be made


I suppose that's what it comes down to. Hypothetically , just for fun , how much do you think it would cost to scratchbuild a B-24. Would it even be feasable to do it ?

_________________
If the first casualty of war is innocence, the second is sobriety - Hawkeye.
Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws - Plato.
Lies get halfway round the world before the truth has a chance to get it's pants on - Churchill
If you are going through he11 - keep going - Churchill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Future warbirds..
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:38 pm 
Offline
2000+ Post Club
2000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:11 pm
Posts: 2673
Location: Port Charlotte, Florida
lestweforget wrote:
Are modern aircraft too complex, expensive and potent to ever be future warbirds?


Yes, to all three of those.

Ask the Collings guys how challenging and expensive it is to maintain and operate their A-4 Skyhawk and F-4 Phantom II, which are literally 1950s technology. Our current front-line fighters, such as the F-15, F-16, and F-18, were designed in the 1970s. Look at how complex they are (and how dangerous!). Our resident F-15 driver, Randy Haskin, can probably give us an idea of how many man-hours of ground labor are required for each hour of flight. The number will shock you. There are a small number of 1950s-era American high performance jets flying in private hands, such as A-4, F-5/T-38, F-100, F-104, etc, but their operating and maintenance costs have got to be staggering, and you can't just run down to the local airplane parts dealer and buy spares for jets like those.

Here in the US, because of the increased concerns over homeland security, there's no way you'd be allowed to operate a modern warplane because it could be used as an effective weapon if it got into the wrong hands. The Collings Foundation has the ONLY civilian (display category) Phantom II, and it literally took a special act of Congress to make that happen. You can be sure that it won't happen again. Look at the fuss that was made over the de-militarization of F-14 Tomcats because the government was worried that their parts would somehow end up in Iran. Two older Tomcats were confiscated from legitimate museums because they had not been properly demilitarized. The government is even taking a long look at vintage warplanes because they could be armed and used as a weapon again.

Eventually, we might see a few more Century-series fighters restored to flying condition, such as an F-105 or perhaps even an F-106, but you can bet that it won't be easy to license anything that isn't already. A couple of years ago, there was an ex-Blue Angels F-18A offered for purchase on eBay. Its Blue Angels heritage was documented. The selling dealer bought it legitimately through a Navy surplus sale, and it somehow got out without being de-mil'd. The airplane was complete with engines and basic avionics, but nothing sensitive or classified. The FBI and FAA investigated and found no wrong-doing, much to the Navy's dismay. The FAA even issued an N-number (experimental category, obviously). To the best of my knowledge, it never did find a buyer (if I'm wrong, someone please chime in and correct me on that). I'm not surprised. It would take a small army (or Navy!) of mechanics to get it flyable and keep it that way, and can you imagine how much it would cost to keep it fueled? It might be difficult to get an F-18 type rating, too, unless you flew them in the military.

It is very hard these days to import a foreign-made warplane. Before the US government clamped down, MiG fighters and various jet trainers were being imported from China, Poland, the Czech republic, et al, in fairly large numbers. They were cheap to buy and offered the advantage of having huge stocks of spare parts available. Some of those MiGs are flying, along with plenty of L-29s and L-39s, but I don't think you'll see any more coming into the US.

In addition to the potential security threat (real or perceived), there is also the safety aspect. Many people feel that high-performance jet fighters are very risky to operate, and one little mechanical problem or one little lapse in judgement by the pilot could send one crashing down into a schoolyard full of little ones or a busy shopping mall. Of course, the same thing could happen with a Cessna 150, but that's beside the point. The public views light planes as much safer than fighter jets.

Sad state of affairs, eh?

Cheers,

_________________
Dean Hemphill, K5DH
Port Charlotte, Florida


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:44 am
Posts: 396
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Quote:
That is where i believe money can be made


Make money in aviation? Surely you jest :twisted:

_________________
real airplanes have round engines


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:36 pm
Posts: 654
Location: Scotland
Thanks k5dh. That was just the kind of thing I was looking for. Thankyou for your concise and knowledgable answer.

_________________
If the first casualty of war is innocence, the second is sobriety - Hawkeye.
Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws - Plato.
Lies get halfway round the world before the truth has a chance to get it's pants on - Churchill
If you are going through he11 - keep going - Churchill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:31 pm
Posts: 2
There are a number of real P-38s in the pipeline, no need for a new production run just yet.

August[/quote]

How many P-38 projects do you know of?

Think there looking for some parts?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:52 am 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 2:02 am
Posts: 4728
Location: Yucca Valley, CA
Quote:
A couple of years ago, there was an ex-Blue Angels F-18A offered for purchase on eBay.


Dean, was this on the West Coast? This might clear up something I posted (with no response) a couple years ago about seeing an F-18 in Blue Angels markings on a flatbed semi-trailer heading east on Interstate 10 near San Bernardino, CA. (I tried to look up my post but the Search function says it's in "Debug mode" :( )

_________________
Image
All right, Mister Dorfmann, start pullin'!
Pilot: "Flap switch works hard in down position."
Mechanic: "Flap switch checked OK. Pilot needs more P.T." - Flight report, TB-17G 42-102875 (Hobbs AAF)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:55 pm 
Offline
2000+ Post Club
2000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:11 pm
Posts: 2673
Location: Port Charlotte, Florida
Chris Brame wrote:
Quote:
A couple of years ago, there was an ex-Blue Angels F-18A offered for purchase on eBay.


Dean, was this on the West Coast? This might clear up something I posted (with no response) a couple years ago about seeing an F-18 in Blue Angels markings on a flatbed semi-trailer heading east on Interstate 10 near San Bernardino, CA. (I tried to look up my post but the Search function says it's in "Debug mode" :( )


Chris,

The a/c that I was referring to was stripped of paint when I saw it on eBay, but they had some photos of it during its Blue Angels service. It was disassembled (wings, fins, and tailplanes off, fuselage in two halves, engines not installed) and as I recall, the fuselage halves and other items were sitting on shipping pallets. I believe it was somewhere in California, and it was being offered by a company that deals in military surplus and radio towers (what an odd combination!).

I'm going from memory here, so if I'm wrong, I apologize.

Cheers!

_________________
Dean Hemphill, K5DH
Port Charlotte, Florida


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:51 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 4:43 pm
Posts: 7501
Location: northern ohio
wow.... repro mosquitos??? done to ww 2 standards, hand made of wood?? that would be a good buck to produce, + all the labor!! or are they using high tech composition type materials as a substitute??

_________________
tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:53 pm 
Offline
2000+ Post Club
2000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:18 pm
Posts: 2275
Location: Vancouver, BC
Hey Tom,

the new Mosquito components are being built the exact same way they were when they were originally built, except that the glues they are using are far superior to the ones used in the 40's.

Here is a link to the guys website:

http://www.mosquitorestoration.com/

Cheers,

David McIntosh


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:03 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 4:43 pm
Posts: 7501
Location: northern ohio
wow...... super ambitious project!! thanks for the info!!

_________________
tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 69 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group