Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:37 am
I was studying those waist windows as well. They certainly look like the type window used on the "F" model. The mountings are different, of course, (due to TR having the staggered windows) but the actual window and frame are very similar to an F. Certainly a rare item either way.
Scott
Scott
Last edited by Second Air Force on Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:41 am
I didn't know TR was one of the PB-1s.
http://biomicro.sdstate.edu/pederses/modelaircraft.html
But who wants to see a blue B-17?
http://biomicro.sdstate.edu/pederses/modelaircraft.html
But who wants to see a blue B-17?
Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:51 am
Personally, I would love it if there were a PB-1W on the circuit. That being said, I LOVE the ratty camouflage on TR--she looks like a 150 mission warrior to me. I liked Spanner's idea of three separate airplanes with three schemes, but I doubt the Wing would care to support all three!
Scott
Scott
Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:09 pm
The interior of "TR" is something of a time capsule !
Having seen the unrestored interior in Don's pictures ~ here's a few from some of the current airworthy B-17's .....
There are compromises to be made between fully authentic interiors and where to put the revenue paying passengers who help keep these aircraft flying. I don't have a favorite ~ they are all different ~ but I love 'em all.
This is Aluminium Overcast ( 2005 )
And this is Thunderbird ( again in 2005 )
And here's The Liberty Belle ( Again in 2005 )
Having seen the unrestored interior in Don's pictures ~ here's a few from some of the current airworthy B-17's .....
There are compromises to be made between fully authentic interiors and where to put the revenue paying passengers who help keep these aircraft flying. I don't have a favorite ~ they are all different ~ but I love 'em all.
This is Aluminium Overcast ( 2005 )
And this is Thunderbird ( again in 2005 )
And here's The Liberty Belle ( Again in 2005 )
Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:26 pm
TR is really not a time capsule. The first restoration done in the 80s reinstalled much of her original equipment. The guys removed the cargo door and reinstalled the waist windows.
Until those guys put much of her equipment and turrets back in she was a gutted shell. She was flying, but that was about it.
Until those guys put much of her equipment and turrets back in she was a gutted shell. She was flying, but that was about it.
Last edited by RickH on Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:00 pm
Rick is correct.
The oil field equipment Co. went so far as to take out the bulkhead at the rear of the radio room so they could stuff bigger equipment in her.
ALL the turret stuff is from other airplanes.
For those paying attention earlier in the thread...
We are leaning heavily towards putting the top turret in NOW!
Some of the repairs we need to make will be easier if we put the bull ring in now. If we put the bull ring in now,we might as well put the whole enchilada in.
But because of TR's long years on the road it has a time capsule "feel" to even the restoration work. It should have even more of that, because we have found some extra goodies!
Stay tuned!
SPANNER
The oil field equipment Co. went so far as to take out the bulkhead at the rear of the radio room so they could stuff bigger equipment in her.
ALL the turret stuff is from other airplanes.
For those paying attention earlier in the thread...
We are leaning heavily towards putting the top turret in NOW!
Some of the repairs we need to make will be easier if we put the bull ring in now. If we put the bull ring in now,we might as well put the whole enchilada in.
But because of TR's long years on the road it has a time capsule "feel" to even the restoration work. It should have even more of that, because we have found some extra goodies!
Stay tuned!
SPANNER
Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:39 pm
Spanner the way I understand it, the flyers got tired of waiting on the refit/restorers the first time around. The fliers finally put their collective foot down and told the guys refitting her, no more money if it don't make it fly. Some of the restorers who did much of the work were essentially cast aside once TR started flying again. Much bad blood.
I think all of the guys from both camps are gone now.
I think all of the guys from both camps are gone now.
Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:38 pm
Flyers vs. Restorers...
There is still that tension even among the "new" people.
I define myself as a "new" person.
I have learnt more of the CAF's history from WIXers posting some threads and a few of the old-timers bringing some cool stuff in.
The thread about CAF livery was an inspiration. I would love to see some post-war or utility bird painted in the old "house" colours.
Likewise seeing a couple of 80's TV shows, such as "Col. Culpepper's Flying Circus" absolutely humbled me. What the British wanker announcer saw as quirks of the CAF I see as virtues. Fortune has given me both a he!! of an opportunity as Wing Leader, and also a large pair of pointy boots to fill!
I want it ALL... Airworthy MOST OF ALL...but as long as the
Airworthy" projects are taking time to cook, I am certainly willing to stay out of the way of the restorers. And even help them.
Sometimes helping them is telling them NOT to restore some area YET because we are just going to have to come through there when we address some Airworthiness issue. They don't necessarily see it that way, but it is doing them a favor.
In the course of getting her airworthy I am cajoling others to clean areas that are long neglected. This was one rode hard and put up dirty airplane.
Under that dirt we have found corroded aluminum, missing or popped rivets, and paint ready to shed like a snake moulting.
If somewhere between now and flyable the TROLL and his minions were to restore the interior to the standards they did in the bombardier's and navigator's stations, SO MUCH the better!
EVERY other day it seems like some unexpected expense or problem comes up... or some monkey starts throwing "biscuits" and hissy fits. Or me throwing biscuits and hissies at them!
But I wouldn't trade this for the world!
There is still that tension even among the "new" people.
I define myself as a "new" person.
I have learnt more of the CAF's history from WIXers posting some threads and a few of the old-timers bringing some cool stuff in.
The thread about CAF livery was an inspiration. I would love to see some post-war or utility bird painted in the old "house" colours.
Likewise seeing a couple of 80's TV shows, such as "Col. Culpepper's Flying Circus" absolutely humbled me. What the British wanker announcer saw as quirks of the CAF I see as virtues. Fortune has given me both a he!! of an opportunity as Wing Leader, and also a large pair of pointy boots to fill!
I want it ALL... Airworthy MOST OF ALL...but as long as the
Airworthy" projects are taking time to cook, I am certainly willing to stay out of the way of the restorers. And even help them.
Sometimes helping them is telling them NOT to restore some area YET because we are just going to have to come through there when we address some Airworthiness issue. They don't necessarily see it that way, but it is doing them a favor.
In the course of getting her airworthy I am cajoling others to clean areas that are long neglected. This was one rode hard and put up dirty airplane.
Under that dirt we have found corroded aluminum, missing or popped rivets, and paint ready to shed like a snake moulting.
If somewhere between now and flyable the TROLL and his minions were to restore the interior to the standards they did in the bombardier's and navigator's stations, SO MUCH the better!
EVERY other day it seems like some unexpected expense or problem comes up... or some monkey starts throwing "biscuits" and hissy fits. Or me throwing biscuits and hissies at them!
But I wouldn't trade this for the world!
Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:34 am
Was TR the first "warbird" B-17? That is, the first put on the airshow circuit in (more or less) military markings?
SN
SN
Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:54 am
Best I remember, it was, Steve.
Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:37 am
Good Eye...WIXers!
TEXAS RAIDERS does indeed have the "F" style sliding frame Waist Gunner windows.
I have been wondering what the deal was, because all those late block 95 Douglases had the fixed windows ALA every other G model.
If any of you historians know the whys and wherefores of how that came about I would enter it to our technical file.
SPANNER
TEXAS RAIDERS does indeed have the "F" style sliding frame Waist Gunner windows.
I have been wondering what the deal was, because all those late block 95 Douglases had the fixed windows ALA every other G model.
If any of you historians know the whys and wherefores of how that came about I would enter it to our technical file.
SPANNER
Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:06 pm
Django wrote:http://biomicro.sdstate.edu/pederses/modelaircraft.html
But who wants to see a blue B-17?
Ummm...the guys that flew and crewed them?
I was just playing devils advocate abit. 
The Navy is well represented in the Warbird world. Soon we'll have a PB4Y in blue nearby..good nuff. Like 2ndAF, I like TR's
war weary appearance and would not gut her G interior. If I had a B-17 in blue, it wouldn't correctly represent
a PB-1W...I believe I'd have to live without the radome.
Here's a link to some pics of the PB-1W's of VW-1, some pics of Texas Raiders(77235) sisters TE-2 thru
TE-7(77234) are pictured. Alas a photo of TR in her PB colors is not there, she flew with VW-1 as TE-12.
http://vw1assoc.tripod.com/pb1wdays.html
A color shot of a PB-1W inthe dark blue and appearing to be in a gloss, rather than the matte or
flat finish of the model example Django linked to.
http://vw1assoc.tripod.com/b-17radar_r1.jpg
Thanks guys for the correction regarding the waist windows guys..I missed the offset, and that negated
the possibility as remnants of her PB days.
Keep up the great effort Spanner!! Good to see she's getting a deep cleaning!! Thank you and the volunteers
for your huge efforts. I've enjoyed this thread immensely!
Last edited by airnutz on Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:41 pm
Airnutz...
Thanks for the links. From the looks of those pictures the Navy still had the fixed windows at the waist gun stations. While TEXAS RAIDERS has "F" style windows, they are offset from each other, like the "G" models.
The Navy also had a "finisher" cover or plug over the top turret.
A previous post said the Navy maintained the capability of re-installing the turrets.
I WISH THAT HAD BEEN MAINTAINED OVER THE YEARS!
The patch job and the mock-up of the top turret are going to take some un-doing to make right.
The Gulf Coast Wing has reproduction side stanchions on the Top Turret. The originals were too far gone, if not gone all together.
It would be grand if there were enough B-17s in the world that people would start restoring some different uses, like Air Sea Rescue and the NAVY application. Kind of like some of the interesting non-AVG P-40s that are showing up now.
Tomorrow I get to go play "Human Q-Tip" again, so life is good!
Have a great weekend WIXers...
And go work on a warbird if you can!
SPANNER
Thanks for the links. From the looks of those pictures the Navy still had the fixed windows at the waist gun stations. While TEXAS RAIDERS has "F" style windows, they are offset from each other, like the "G" models.
The Navy also had a "finisher" cover or plug over the top turret.
A previous post said the Navy maintained the capability of re-installing the turrets.
I WISH THAT HAD BEEN MAINTAINED OVER THE YEARS!
The patch job and the mock-up of the top turret are going to take some un-doing to make right.
The Gulf Coast Wing has reproduction side stanchions on the Top Turret. The originals were too far gone, if not gone all together.
It would be grand if there were enough B-17s in the world that people would start restoring some different uses, like Air Sea Rescue and the NAVY application. Kind of like some of the interesting non-AVG P-40s that are showing up now.
Tomorrow I get to go play "Human Q-Tip" again, so life is good!
Have a great weekend WIXers...
And go work on a warbird if you can!
SPANNER
Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:21 pm
Keep up the great work Spanner! Sorry to keep pestering you with questions. That said, here's another one.. I take it TR have an actual full top turret, rather than just the cupola a la some of the other Forts on the circuit?
SN
I take it TR have an actual full top turret, rather than just the cupola a la some of the other Forts on the circuit?
SN
Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:01 pm
The first CAF B17 now known as THE TEXAS RAIDERS joined the CAF with the top turret skinned over and with ALL the combat furniture removed.
No chin turret, no ball turret, no waist gun positions. It had a side cargo door cut into it and the rear radio room bulkhead removed so the Oil Co. could haul more cargo.
Col. Nolen and the boys bought it off an airfield somewhere near Fort Worth.
She spent a period un-named and painted in the House Livery you have probably seen recent WIX threads about.
Then when Curtis Lemay retired from the USAF she was still un-named, but painted green and sported a "G" or a "J" on the tail for his Bomb Group... Some WIXer help me out here... I can't remember which it was.
Then she was named THE TEXAS RAIDERS to honor the 381st BG out of Pyote, Texas, because the Gulf Coast Wing wanted a Texas connection.
Subsequent restorations returned more and more combat equipment.
(Some of the donations from members of the 381st will send chills up your spine when we get our Museum going...and we WILL!)
Col. Ken Hyman went to California to pick up a pile of top turret equipment, but it was missing the side rails, or stanchions. The Wing had a pair of those fabricated and then the arguing started over when and IF to put the whole mechanism back in.
Let me just say this about THAT... The volunteers doing the "heavy lifting" on the project are MOSTLY the ones who want the full works put back in.
That goes a LONG way with me!
All the time it has been on the Warbird circuit (and it was indeed the first B17 redone as a warbird) it has had a false turret or cupola on it.
The skin underneath the faux-cupola has some corrosion, so it is at the point where it is easier (or at least Just As Hard
) to cut it out and put the bullring back in and make it as correct as we can.
More info than you wanted Steve, but there you have it.
I really am signing off now and going home, no... really I am.
NO MORE WIX UNTIL MONDAY!!!:roll:
Thanks for the questions,
SPANNER
No chin turret, no ball turret, no waist gun positions. It had a side cargo door cut into it and the rear radio room bulkhead removed so the Oil Co. could haul more cargo.
Col. Nolen and the boys bought it off an airfield somewhere near Fort Worth.
She spent a period un-named and painted in the House Livery you have probably seen recent WIX threads about.
Then when Curtis Lemay retired from the USAF she was still un-named, but painted green and sported a "G" or a "J" on the tail for his Bomb Group... Some WIXer help me out here... I can't remember which it was.
Then she was named THE TEXAS RAIDERS to honor the 381st BG out of Pyote, Texas, because the Gulf Coast Wing wanted a Texas connection.
Subsequent restorations returned more and more combat equipment.
(Some of the donations from members of the 381st will send chills up your spine when we get our Museum going...and we WILL!)
Col. Ken Hyman went to California to pick up a pile of top turret equipment, but it was missing the side rails, or stanchions. The Wing had a pair of those fabricated and then the arguing started over when and IF to put the whole mechanism back in.
Let me just say this about THAT... The volunteers doing the "heavy lifting" on the project are MOSTLY the ones who want the full works put back in.
That goes a LONG way with me!
All the time it has been on the Warbird circuit (and it was indeed the first B17 redone as a warbird) it has had a false turret or cupola on it.
The skin underneath the faux-cupola has some corrosion, so it is at the point where it is easier (or at least Just As Hard
) to cut it out and put the bullring back in and make it as correct as we can.
More info than you wanted Steve, but there you have it.
I really am signing off now and going home, no... really I am.
NO MORE WIX UNTIL MONDAY!!!:roll:
Thanks for the questions,
SPANNER