P-51D "Willit Run?" 353rd FG

[Jack Cook]

The choice of "Willit Run" for the nose art was to depict a representative machine; NASM doesn't like depicting famous machines when their aircraft is not the specific machine.

By reading that is wasn't sure if you're saying was or wasn't a actual P-51 that carried these marking. So............................

P-51D s/n 44-14771 "Wiilit Run?" YJ+L
Major Fred Le Febre 3 kills 351st FS 353rd FG 8th AF 1943-45
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/353-lefebre-5dec44.jpg

[mustangdriver]

I actually like that paint scheme.

[Lynn Allen]

It looks even better in person...

Lynn

[k5083]

"Willit Run" was known to be an actual P-51. NASM probably worked from that photo. Note that the serial isn't visible. One of the factors in the NASM's decision was that the serial of "Willit Run" was unknown. The serial they painted on the tail was that of an aircraft known to have been assigned to that group, but whose pilot and any name or nose art was unknown. Thus, the serial and name of NASM's P-51 are almost certainly mismatched, unless by coincidence, but nobody can prove it. All of this was intentional. The idea was to have an accurate airplane but without representing any specific real aircraft. The whole logic is a bit tortured IMO, but perhaps it made sense at the time. What I have often wondered is if anyone in the intervening years since the 1970s has discovered the true serial of "Willit Run" and can accuse the NASM of being inaccurate. Not that it matters much in the scheme of things really!

August

[Chicoartist]

Jus' the facks ...

The original (in the wartime photo) was "Willit Run?" 44-14771, YJ-L, of the 351 FS.

The NASM airframe currently on display has her own correct AAF serial number (44-74939) painted on the tail, but otherwise she's "marked" to represent 4771 based on the photo - though they mistakenly applied an "E" instead of "L".

http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/su ... 4939.shtml

Wade

Last edited by Chicoartist on Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:29 pm, edited 5 times in total.

[Django]

So the NASM Mustang was just a stateside bird and not a combat vet?

[Jack Cook]

The NASM airframe currently on display has her own correct AAF serial number (44-74939)

Good job Wade. I was going to post that. I would have a hard time beleiving that NASM has a a/c they don't have a ID and history for(except possibly a foreign type maybe).
I'm sure someone saw that photo and assumed 'E' oops. 25+ year layer they see or think of the goof and say...................

[k5083]

So the NASM Mustang was just a stateside bird and not a combat vet?

Correct. Here is former NASM Senior Curator Robert Mikesh's explanation of the paint scheme:

The P-51D in the collection was never in a combat unit. It went from its place of manufacture to a training unit in the US and in its post-war markings carried the peacetime slogan "ENLIST IN THE AAF. GUARD THE VICTORY" on the side of its fuselage. If left in these service markings, this would hardly be representative of the combat role for which it was designed and brought into the collection to represent. (Some argue that an airplane should be restored to the condition in which it left the factory or was received by the museum, and to use photos and graphics to illustrate how it may have looked in combat. The right solution is the one that best suits the museum's mission, depicting the airplane for which it was brought into the respective collection.)

Referring to the same photo Jack posted, Mikesh continued:

In the case of NASM's Mustang, a photo was selected of a P-51D to use as a pattern for combat markings depicting a unit based in England and assigned to long-range bomber escort missions. The photo was ideal because at the angle at which it was taken, the wing blocked the serial number from view. Thus, when painting NASM Mustang to match the one in the photo, there would be no potential mismatch between the real serial number of NASM aircraft and the one in the photo. No specific airman was identified with this airplane, so that aspect also fits the established criteria for selecting unit markings for a Category III aircraft. The museum's Mustang now has the nickname Willit Run? on its nose, an exact duplicate of a known typical P-51D that had flown in combat over Europe. The exhibit label explains these imitation markings.

Restoring Museum Aircraft, 26-27.

As Wade points out, however, subsequent research has thwarted NASM's intentions. The serial and pilot (Fred Lefebre) of the original Willit Run? are now known, so the NASM's restoration is exposed as inaccurate.

Using "E" instead of "L" was not a so much a goof as a guess. NASM was not setting out to depict a specific aircraft accurately. Since they knew that the serial and nose art were mismatched, it was no big deal that the letter was also mismatched.

August

Last edited by k5083 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Chicoartist]

Google made short work of THAT!

As to not knowing the serial of "Willit Run?" - my 1968 copy of "The Slybird Group", about the 353rd, has a nice big and correct profile of the wartime Willit Run?, complete with the correct serial number and pilot info. So, the info was known in 1968, and published in a popular book by Kenn Rust and Bill Hess.

And, I have a copy of the NASM aircraft collection softcover, which I bought at the museum in 1980, and they specifically acknowledge the museum airframe's correct serial and history (no combat time), along with the fact that they based the markings of the museum aircraft after the actual (specific aircraft) Willit Run?.

... matter of fact, my NASM book has that same picture you posted, Jack, and says, ". . . Markings for the P-51D in the National Air and Space Museum are patterned after this aircraft."

No mystery, really ...

EDIT - I see that August posted Mikesh's remarks. They concur exactly with the info in the NASM book I have as far as yes, the museum aircraft isn't "the real thing", but rather is painted after a real aircraft (all of which the museum freely acknowledges in books and on the exhibit card). The only incorrect things he says (surprising, to me) are that the plane was not connected with a specific known pilot, nor was the serial known. He/they obviously went ONLY by the caption supplied with the Archives picture. He should have asked his modeling buddies - they (using the Kenn Rust book) could have told him all about "Willit Run?", including the fact that there's an "L" back there, not an "E".

Last edited by Chicoartist on Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[k5083]

Nobody ever said that the NASM didn't know the true serial and history of its own bird.

What they did not know, when they painted it, was the true serial and pilot of the original Willit Run? The information may have been available, but if they had known of it, they would have chosen some other paint scheme. Interestingly, Mikesh still apparently had not heard that Willit Run?'s true serial and pilot were known in 1997, when he wrote his book.

I was mistaken in saying that the NASM painted a false serial on the tail.

August

[Jack Cook]

I have the Skybird Group and it's a good book.
I'm sure that P-51D was painted after then.
No dobubt the ID of the pilot, squadron ect was known
just not by them. They should have done better reasearch
or called me
I don't think it would be correct that they wouldn't have painted it
that way if they'd known the true details. Just look at Don Lopez's P-40E.
That's been in those marking just has long. I remember it from 1975.

[Chicoartist]

. . . Interestingly, Mikesh still apparently had not heard that Willit Run?'s true serial and pilot were known in 1997, when he wrote his book.

I don't blame him, really - we've got info like this at the tip of our fingers - we're geeks about this stuff - and to him it's just one plane among many much more famous airframes. What actually does surprise me, as I mentioned, is that they were unaware (obviously, or as August says they would have been forced to choose another "markings pattern"), that the Rust/Hess book existed. A failure on the research end, for sure.

But, as we all agree, it's a cool scheme. Next person in there bring some paint thinner swabs and make that "E" into an "L". Keep the actual airframe serial on the tail, but correct that dang "L".

Wade

[k5083]

It is NASM policy with what they call Category III aircraft (having no historical significance in themselves, except as representatives of a type) that "It is best not to use the markings of a famous individual on a general aircraft but to try to make a more general identification." So it depends on whether you think Lefebre counts as famous. I'd say he is pretty obscure, so the museum is probably not overly upset at where things stand. But, even more obscure or entirely unknown would be better.

August

Last edited by k5083 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[Chicoartist]

Deleted double-post (thanks, WINDOWS!)

Wade

Last edited by Chicoartist on Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Jack Cook]

Where does Lopez fit has to fame with the Cat 3 P-40E??