Warbird Information Exchange

Thanks Shay! They Are BEAUTIFUL!

Still a lot of Japanese Stuff on Guam !!! Please, please tell us more. Promised i won't go there to try and recover it, with or without Unesco approval.

Regards,

Laurent

How are you going to track it in the middle of nowhere? I thought we were talking about Indonesia?





Same as above.


Rob Would you pm me your notes about Guam as well?

Thanks

The MIG-23 Flogger at the NMUSAF was acquired/confiscated because a Business man who imported it illeagally or at least improperly. Sucks for him.

Shay

I found Airmanual's post very informative, as he has traveled extensively throughout Indonesia recently. It sounds from his first-hand account that it is very safe, as long as you use common sense (which would apply anywhere else as well).

As far as Indonesian retrieval, I remember that 3 aircraft came out of Babo in the early 90's, I think, and went to California. Wasn't it a Betty, Tony and Zero? The people involved in that sucessful undertaking would be the ones to explain how its done.

Airmanual - with your contacts throughout Indonesia, would any of them be able to confirm the status of the Morotai aircraft?

Huh? No speak english

so do you intend shuffling it continually through the jungles or trying to actually bring it into civilisation?

it is the process of bringing it into civilisation, the US in particular, that Rob has been trying to tell you about.

Just so you know, I have known a few people who have managed to become quite rich by trading and swapping various things around the outback areas of australia but more than one of them on retiring to the city became suddenly quite poor because of tax depts suddenly wanting to know where all the money came from. same sort of thing.

now, can you just imagine what happens if some-one from indonesia says " Harvard IV is the guy that got this Ki61 from me." in response to a US state dept enquiry abut a variety of aircraft bits ( all nicely numbered and coded so reassembly is easy but they don't know that ) which you suddenly had arrive at the LA docks?

they might not be the brightest but I am sure they'd know something was not quite kosher there and dig even further. both of these mean that whatever you brought in as soon as they start checking paperwork you are going to be waiting for quite some time for your aircraft parts if they ever get reased to you at all to be on US soil.

most likely ( never having done anything like this but having dealt with customs and quarantine service a bit ) you'd find that taking it into almost any of the "civilised" world and even some of the less civilised parts would be also fraught with problems for the same or similar reasons. I know to bring stuff in here it has to be almost completely sterilised depending on what and where from and that costs money. I also know that any discrepancy in your paper work and it might take years to sort it out while your prescious gear is working up a nice storage debt for you while you sort it all out.

all that said if you can manage it then I say go for it. just do NOT stuff it up for the rest of us and yourself ( afterall there's more than one airframe out there you might want ) by being a cowboy and upsetting everyone in the process. you achieve more by working within the system than outside of it.

Guys,

Like Airmanual I have also traveled extensively in Indonesia, Malayasia and Thailand and can confirm 100% what he is saying, Indonesia is basically a safe destination, PROVIDED you respect local customs and people you will have a great trip.

Never under any circumstances declare anything other than what it actually is, otherwise you are liable for prosecution by any customs authority in the world for misdeclaration of goods, in other words you are breaking the law and it will cost you dearly, sometimes more than just your hard earned cash, some countries also have mandatory custodial sentence.

On the subject of UNESCO, this is an International treaty for the protection of National Treasures, Archeolgical, Historical and Heritage items and sites.
It is the bounden duty of each Signatory Sovereign Country to protect and preserve these artifacts and sites, this does not mean there is a blanket ban on the recovery and restoration of items of historical interest.

It means you MUST obtain the necessary permits and licences from that Sovereign Government for the removal and export to another country.

Once you have LEGAL title to an item issued by that country's authorities and necessary export permits/licences, import to your own country would be a normal import process, which may require an import licence and probally would include duties and taxes levied by the authorities in your country, Oh and one other thing, make sure you have a certificate issued by the exporting country that the item has been DEMILITARISED., guns and bang seats either removed or deactivated.

I would sugegst that if any of you are serious about looking for a/c in South Asia, by all means take a trip look for what your interested in, take lots of photos and GPS co-ordinates and then go back home and think seriously about the time and costs involved.

Never, ever go into the jungle alone even if it's just a few meters away from a road.

Then go talk to the Embassy of the country you are interested in, be honest and tell then what you want to do, you might be lucky, you never know.

Stuart

Jeffrey Wrote:



What R Ya talking about Jeffrey? We all are cowboys in Texas and Arizona..

No seriously,

What Rob failed to realize was that if you ship the "aircraft parts" to Fiji, which is immune to these things. You can then "plan" the trip back into the U.S. for a successful reentry back in.

How will some native in the middle of nowhere, or anywhere else make that connection? If they do, (they'd have to be very smart) how will "aircraft parts" match up to a previous identity, especially if they're painted. They're now reclassified, and under the new classification they are non-recognizable and now different than their former existence.

I've read or heard something about Vietnamese skyraiders or a Bearcat, who's new owner tried that. Got the stuff to Australia or NZ, shipped it to Canada, then tried to bring it in from there. The stuff was impounded instantly. Took years to get out, I don't think it did, I think it went back to Australia. I went to a U.S. customs website awhile back and looked up the requirements for importing aircraft and parts, in association with another recovery idea that I had. My eyes rolled backed and I went into a coma after about 30 minutes of reading. The main thing I got out of it was, the paperwork and the paper trail has to be immaculate. They won't let you do the country to country shuffle, and they will catch you doing it. There was a South American P-47 a couple of years back,that had good paperwork and everything, it sat on the pier in Oakland for over two years because a customs agent randomly decided it was a terrible warplane, and wouldn't let it clear. Over two years in court, and with the storage fees piling up.

I guess the main thing I've learned from the reading I've done is, Get someone else to do it. There are a lot of outfits that specialize in moving exotic cargo between borders, and they're good at it. I'd let them do it. Work up all of the paperwork and permissions before I did anything.

Just my 2 cents....

_________________
DEEP THOUGHTS BY KIDS:
"If we could just get everyone to close their eyes and visualize world peace for an hour, imagine how serene and quiet it would be until the looting started. Age 15 "


Deep Thoughts,
Jack Handy

I'm just very doubtful and wary of the things Rob sometimes says as it looks like a need to be identified. With that said I would not try anything without gathering all the facts to begin with.

The situation I mentioned earlier was hypothetical, but more of a reaction to data I feel is being used to derail the constructive discussion.

HarvardIV,

Lets put the discussion into perspective and be sensible, your basic idea is workable, and some very good advice has come from lots of people on the board.

UNESCO laws are problematical, but can be got round by legal means.

Logistics is a major problem in any part of South Asia but can be solved with thought and application and it pays to employ experts.

Export and import licences/permits are imperative for moving any ex-military equipment almost anywhere in the world, as is the certificate of de-militarisation.

I understand some of your comments were meant in fun, but I cannot stress this any more forcefully, if you act like a cowboy in Asia you are liable to get banged up for a considerable period of time, and Asian jails are not nice places for westerners, the facilites are minimal to say the least, mind you in saying that it's a quick way to learn a foreign language.


Stuart