Auto Gas
Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:58 pm
Due to the increasing cost of 100LL in our area ($5.10 including tax, and rising) our FBO will be putting a smaller fuel truck into service for pumping auto gas into eligible aircraft.
It is our hope that by doing this we can reduce the cost of fuel to some, by as much as $1 a gallon.
My question to you all is how much interest do you think we will get in guaranteed ethanol free auto gas pumped straight into ones aircraft?
I would be interested in your questions, comments or concerns, in the interest of providing a better service to my customers.
Is anyone familiar with any other FBO’s doing something similar?
It is our hope that by doing this we can reduce the cost of fuel to some, by as much as $1 a gallon.
My question to you all is how much interest do you think we will get in guaranteed ethanol free auto gas pumped straight into ones aircraft?
I would be interested in your questions, comments or concerns, in the interest of providing a better service to my customers.
Is anyone familiar with any other FBO’s doing something similar?
Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:36 am
If you are in California all the auto fuel has MTBE which is not approved for use under an auto gas STC "to the best of my knowledge." Also, some overhaulers will not warrant their engines if auto gas is used.
Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:52 am
We are in WA state, but I'll still look into if MTBE is in the fuel we propose to use.
Thanks,
Thanks,
Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:39 pm
Let me know where you plan on doing this, and if it's relatively close-by
to me, I'll be flying in regularly to fill up my Cessna 180 (I'm in
Washington state as well). I used to stop at the Arlington airport
whenever I was anywhere near there to top off with Mogas, but, (as you
probably know), they quit selling Mogas there a short while ago. I've
purchased Mogas at the Pullman airport (stopped there on the way to
KOSH last year for the specific purpose of doing so). Word has it
the Prosser airport also has Mogas for sale, but I haven't personally
purchased any there.
As far as comments/concerns go, some of us out here know what the
wholesale price of 100LL (and Mogas) is around this area (a bunch of my
neighbors have in-ground tanks, and they regularly check the wholesale
prices). I don't mind anybody making a profit, but math is math, and
dollars are dollars. If I can buy Mogas cheaper at the local Chevron
(even paying retail) that's what I'll do (even if I have to continue to shlep
it to my airplane....).
I intend to do my part to make sure the demand side of the 100LL
equation is as low as possible...
(not to mention the fact that that
stuff has way too much lead in it and just fouls plugs & makes exhaust
valves stick in 90% of the GA aircraft fleet currently flying).
Bela P. Havasreti
to me, I'll be flying in regularly to fill up my Cessna 180 (I'm in
Washington state as well). I used to stop at the Arlington airport
whenever I was anywhere near there to top off with Mogas, but, (as you
probably know), they quit selling Mogas there a short while ago. I've
purchased Mogas at the Pullman airport (stopped there on the way to
KOSH last year for the specific purpose of doing so). Word has it
the Prosser airport also has Mogas for sale, but I haven't personally
purchased any there.
As far as comments/concerns go, some of us out here know what the
wholesale price of 100LL (and Mogas) is around this area (a bunch of my
neighbors have in-ground tanks, and they regularly check the wholesale
prices). I don't mind anybody making a profit, but math is math, and
dollars are dollars. If I can buy Mogas cheaper at the local Chevron
(even paying retail) that's what I'll do (even if I have to continue to shlep
it to my airplane....).
I intend to do my part to make sure the demand side of the 100LL
equation is as low as possible...
(not to mention the fact that that
stuff has way too much lead in it and just fouls plugs & makes exhaust
valves stick in 90% of the GA aircraft fleet currently flying).
Bela P. Havasreti
Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:14 pm
I'm with Pearson Air at the Olympia airport.
Right now it looks like we will have to charge more than if one was to go to the gas station and fill cans (we have to make something off of this).
The hope is, that the convieniance of being able to pump directly into the aircraft as well as knowing that the fuel will be ethonal free along with the lower price compaired to 100LL, will be enough to attract customers.
Right now it looks like we will have to charge more than if one was to go to the gas station and fill cans (we have to make something off of this).
The hope is, that the convieniance of being able to pump directly into the aircraft as well as knowing that the fuel will be ethonal free along with the lower price compaired to 100LL, will be enough to attract customers.
Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:49 pm
I'm OK with that (like I said, I'm OK with folks needing to make a living!).
For what it's worth, the Mogas that was selling at the Arlington airport
was generally about $.30 - $.40 cents more per gallon than what you'd
pay retail at the local car gas station, but as you say, the convenience of
landing at an airport to fill up your airplane does tend to offset the
additional cost.
FYI, here is the current cost (per www.airnav.com) at two other Pacific
Northwest airports that have Mogas on the airport:
Pullman (KPUW) = $3.30
Lebanon State (S30) = $3.35
However, that's cheaper than the retail cost at my local Chevron! (near
Crest Airpark, in Kent). I suspect the wholesale cost of fuel will be
somewhat higher in the Puget Sound area than it is at locations like
Pullman and Lebanon State, and I also suspect KPUW and S30 doesn't
change the price several times per day based upon what a barrel of
oil is trading at on any particular day in the commodities
markets like the retail car gas stations do....
Anyway, I applaud you for at least considering / attempting to offer
Mogas for sale at KOLM. If it's priced reasonably, You'll have me and
many of my local pilot friends as repeat customers!
Bela P. Havasreti
For what it's worth, the Mogas that was selling at the Arlington airport
was generally about $.30 - $.40 cents more per gallon than what you'd
pay retail at the local car gas station, but as you say, the convenience of
landing at an airport to fill up your airplane does tend to offset the
additional cost.
FYI, here is the current cost (per www.airnav.com) at two other Pacific
Northwest airports that have Mogas on the airport:
Pullman (KPUW) = $3.30
Lebanon State (S30) = $3.35
However, that's cheaper than the retail cost at my local Chevron! (near
Crest Airpark, in Kent). I suspect the wholesale cost of fuel will be
somewhat higher in the Puget Sound area than it is at locations like
Pullman and Lebanon State, and I also suspect KPUW and S30 doesn't
change the price several times per day based upon what a barrel of
oil is trading at on any particular day in the commodities
markets like the retail car gas stations do....
Anyway, I applaud you for at least considering / attempting to offer
Mogas for sale at KOLM. If it's priced reasonably, You'll have me and
many of my local pilot friends as repeat customers!
Bela P. Havasreti
Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:56 pm
I'm curious, how you have seen Mogas being distributed in the past? Fuel truck? Self Serve?
I hope we can be pumping within a month. We just bought a truck. We have an aprox. 500 gal. tank to put on it. We still have to send out the meter to be calibrated, check the pump, new hose, paint.....So we still have a lot of work to do.
snj-5, I'll let you know when we start selling.
Keep the input coming
Thanks.
I hope we can be pumping within a month. We just bought a truck. We have an aprox. 500 gal. tank to put on it. We still have to send out the meter to be calibrated, check the pump, new hose, paint.....So we still have a lot of work to do.
snj-5, I'll let you know when we start selling.
Keep the input coming
Thanks.
Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:30 pm
Curtis Block wrote:I'm curious, how you have seen Mogas being distributed in the past? Fuel truck? Self Serve?
I hope we can be pumping within a month. We just bought a truck. We have an aprox. 500 gal. tank to put on it. We still have to send out the meter to be calibrated, check the pump, new hose, paint.....So we still have a lot of work to do.
snj-5, I'll let you know when we start selling.
Keep the input coming
Thanks.
As I understand it, you don't have to pay the road taxes on mogas pumped straight into an aircraft, so a lot of savings happen right there. In my area I only know of one airport that has it available and its self-service pump at Cooperstown NY. I thought MTBE was banned for polluting the ground-water, but ethanol is an issue. I would love to have mogas easily available in my area.
Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:21 pm
And right you are!skybolt2003 wrote:I thought MTBE was banned for polluting the ground-water, but ethanol is an issue. I would love to have mogas easily available in my area.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygenate
In 2004, California and New York banned MTBE, generally replacing it with ethanol. Several other states started switching soon afterward.
Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:36 pm
i know you can use auto gas as long as you have an STC but after long use does it do any damage?
Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:34 am
Well here's the truck.
We just got it today. Looks like a fuel truck already, right.
Ok, use some imagination. 
I spent most of the day getting ready to remove the top rack.
Not as easy as I thought it might be.
Finally after some fancy work with the largest fork lift I could find on the airport, and a few close calls. We got it.
If you want the rack, make an offer (you haul).
The side lockers will stay for fire extinguishers, sump buckets, spill kit .... and the tank should fit nicely in the middle.
Next, prep for paint.
We just got it today. Looks like a fuel truck already, right.
Ok, use some imagination.
I spent most of the day getting ready to remove the top rack.
Not as easy as I thought it might be.
Finally after some fancy work with the largest fork lift I could find on the airport, and a few close calls. We got it.
If you want the rack, make an offer (you haul).
The side lockers will stay for fire extinguishers, sump buckets, spill kit .... and the tank should fit nicely in the middle.
Next, prep for paint.
Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:53 am
We are getting there. The truck should be painted next week. We have everything together except a hose, filter and decals. Sorry no photos. It's a bit more work than I thought.
gas
Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:18 pm
Has anyone used car gas in their T-6? I know it was used years ago, the engine only requires 87 octane. EAA has done a lot of research with auto gas use, it seems to me I remember ethanol being harmful to parts like floats in the fuel system. I have used autogas in my Cub with a Continental 90, seemed to run the same. Of course fuel cost in a Cub is so minimal one doesn't need to bother. It' s about 4 gal per hour.
Re: gas
Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:54 pm
Bill Greenwood wrote:Has anyone used car gas in their T-6? I know it was used years ago, the engine only requires 87 octane. EAA has done a lot of research with auto gas use, it seems to me I remember ethanol being harmful to parts like floats in the fuel system. I have used autogas in my Cub with a Continental 90, seemed to run the same. Of course fuel cost in a Cub is so minimal one doesn't need to bother. It' s about 4 gal per hour.
Bill,
I know nuthin' about aero engines, but I do know that gas-o-hol is harmful to the fuel systems in classic cars. The alcohol ruins the rubber fuel lines, non-metal carb floats, gaskets, rubber seals on internal parts, plastic parts of the fuel gauge sending unit, and so forth; basically anything that isn't metal is at risk. We can replace the rubber fuel lines with modern stuff easily enough (if we're not concerned with concours-correct originality!), but there has so far been no way to combat the other problems. I'm not sure what we're gonna do. Eventually, we will no longer be able to run our cars unless someone comes up with fuel system parts that will withstand the "ethanol attack". Cindy and I have a really nice Mustang and Corvette that will become nothing more than fancy doorstops. . .
Cheers!
Dean
Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:17 am
Bill,
I talked with an IA today that has experience with the T-6 type. He said he has known of people using auto fuel in a T-6 type aircraft. His opinion, "It won't hurt anything." He also made it sound as though it could be beneficial to the aircraft. He recommended trying to find an STC for the R-1340, and going from there. Unfortunately he didn't tell me if there was an STC out there for the 1340. Of course the type certificate for your aircraft could come come into play.
I talked with an IA today that has experience with the T-6 type. He said he has known of people using auto fuel in a T-6 type aircraft. His opinion, "It won't hurt anything." He also made it sound as though it could be beneficial to the aircraft. He recommended trying to find an STC for the R-1340, and going from there. Unfortunately he didn't tell me if there was an STC out there for the 1340. Of course the type certificate for your aircraft could come come into play.