Warbird Information Exchange

Dear forum,

In November I visited the Armed Forces Museum (Museum Satria Mandala) in Jakarta, Indonesia, which boasts this P-51D (or maybe K) Mustang, F-347, the US identity of which is unknown:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Indonesi ... 1324384/M/
I was able to read off the c/n plate, that is, I found a plate in one of the mainwheel wells and the number does have the correct format of a NA Mustang c/n. However, it's weathered. I wrote it down as 186-33367, but perhaps it's more likely to be 106-32267 from the photo I took:
http://www.horizonten.nl/pix/plate.jpg
(large file)
Unfortunately, both the first and the second part of the c/n don't seem to fit in any of the P-51D/K serial batches, which Joe Baugher summarizes as given in the table below. Does anyone have a clue as to why?
Above the c'/n it seems to reads '.FM'70' (first character unclear). Is this a factory indication perhaps?
The aircraft is believed not to be a former Netherlands East Indies AF Mustang, but to have been purchased by Indonesia after 1950.
Thanks for any suggestions!

Peter



Serials of the P-51D:

Inglewood-built P-51Ds

44-13253/14052 North American P-51D-5-NA Mustang
c/n 109-26886/27685. 800 aircraft
44-14053/14852 North American P-51D-10-NA Mustang
c/n 109-27686/28485. 800 aircraft.
44-14853/15752 North American P-51D-15-NA Mustang
c/n 109-28486/28885, 35536/36035. 900 aircraft
44-63160/64159 North American P-51D-20-NA Mustang
c/n 122-30806/31885. 1000 aircraft
44-72027/72626 North American P-51D-20-NA Mustang
c/n 122-31886/31985,38586/39085. 600 aircraft.
44-72627/74226 North American P-51D-25-NA Mustang
c/n 122-39086/40085,40167/40766. 1600 aircraft
44-74227/75026 North American P-51D-30-NA Mustang
c/n 122-40767/41566. 800 aircraft.

Dallas-built P-51Ds

44-11153/11352 North American P-51D-5-NT Mustang
c/n 111-29286/29485. 200 aircraft
44-12853/13252 North American P-51D-20-NT Mustang
c/n 111-36136/36535. 400 aircraft
44-84390/84989 North American P-51D-25-NT Mustang
c/n 124-44246/44845. 600 aircraft.
45-11343/11542 North American P-51D-25-NT Mustang
c/n 124-48096/48295. 200 aircraft.
45-11543/11742 North American P-51D-30-NT Mustang
c/n 124-48296/48495. 200 aircraft.

total of 8100 P-51Ds/

Serials of the P-51K:

44-11353/11552 North American P-51K-1-NT Mustang
c/n 111-29486/29685. 200 aircraft
44-11553/11952 North American P-51K-5-NT Mustang
c/n 111-29686/30085. 400 aircraft
44-11953/12552 North American P-51K-10-NT Mustang
c/n 111-30086/30685. 600 aircraft
44-12553/12852 North American P-51K-15-NT Mustang
c/n 111-30686/30885, 111-36036/36135. 300 aircraft

total of 1500 P-51Ks.

Have you contacted Mark Koelich? He has been researching the Mustangs in Indonesia for a long time, and he is in Indonesia.

Saludos,


Tulio

_________________
Why take the best part of life out of your life, when you can have life with the best part of your life in your life?

I am one of them 'futbol' people.

Will the previous owner has pics of this double cabin sample

GOOD MORNING, WELCOME TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
Press "1" for English.
Press "2" to disconnect until you have learned to speak English.

Sooooo, how am I going to know to press 1 or 2, if I do not speak English????

Sounds good, do you know how to contact him?

The number you have the photo of is a part number for that casting that is a part of the wing.
The serial number of the aircraft would be stamped or etched into a plate attached to the R/H longeron in the cockpit next to where the pilots shoulder would be.
There could be NAA construction number stamped in other parts of the aircraft which could correlate to a serial number.
Remember that almost every piece, little or big, has a part number. Some are stamped (pressed), some cast, some are inked onto the parts.
Also at some time the wing could be changed due to damage so that wouldn't be a good place to identify the aircraft.
Rich

Thanks for clearing this up, Rich.
I realized this needed not be the aircraft's c/n plate, but since the format was correct for a North American c/n I supposed it was.

Peter

So far as I know, there is no known ID for AURI F 347.

Marc K can give you better context as to why, but the AURI has always been pretty secretive about that kind of information. Even worse, they don't allow outsiders to do any research in their historical files.

So, a lot of the "known" information about AURI Mustangs is patchy at best. Even some of the published info about the Dutch NEIAF Mustang fleet (from which the AURI fleet was derived) isn't spot on.

The other Mustang in front of TNI-AU HQ in Jakarta is Cavalier Mustang II 72-1537 / F 362.

Yes, I know. That's why I tried to find the c/n now that this aircraft is no longer fenced off.

There are two, as you can see in Google Earth. According to Marco Pennings of scramble.nl, they are F-338 and F-362, but the site is off limits.

To make a little roundup, a fourth Mustang in Jakarta is F-303 at the gate of Halim AFB:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Indonesi ... 0977389/M/

Another Indonesian Mustang is in the museum at the Yogyakarta AFB:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Indonesi ... 1176013/M/
Painted as F-338, see remark with the photo.

And a Mustang in 'NEIAF" markings is in Ambarawa, Central Java:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Netherla ... 1315961/M/
Likely to be Indonesian F-354, despite wearing some sort of 'French' roundel underneath. This is probably because it was placed here to represent a British aircraft (P-47?) shot down in a lake here by the independence fighters in 1945.

Peter

Fogg1, Marc will post his answer here. You can then contact him via PM.

Saludos,


Tulio

_________________
Why take the best part of life out of your life, when you can have life with the best part of your life in your life?

I am one of them 'futbol' people.

Will the previous owner has pics of this double cabin sample

GOOD MORNING, WELCOME TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
Press "1" for English.
Press "2" to disconnect until you have learned to speak English.

Sooooo, how am I going to know to press 1 or 2, if I do not speak English????

Hi Peter et al,

Unfortunately, I cannot be of much help here. Marco Pennings and I had a similar discussion a couple of months ago, and we had come to the same conclusion that it was a part number and not the Mustang’s c/n.

Finding all the AURI Mustang serial numbers and matching them to AURI serials is my Holy Grail.
It’s basically mission impossible. First, access to the air force files is very difficult, and secondly, there might be no files at all on the subject.
A few years ago, retired Air Marshall and former Mustang pilot Sumakno started a book on AURI Mustangs, and he looked for archives at the former Mustang bases Halim and Malang, and at the former Mustang squadron HQ. He found nothing.

For the 20+ Mustangs handed over by the ML in 1950, we can rely only on Dutch documents for serial numbers.
As for the 20 Mustangs purchased around 1960, the most reliable data in my humble opinion comes from unsung aviation historian Mal Gougon who thoroughly inspected the airframes purchased by Steven Johnson at their arrival in the US. And there are a couple of photos where the AURI markings are still readable. I don’t think AURI bothered with serial numbers at the time.
There seems to have been some serious cannibalisation going on during the late 1960’s and early 1970’s, which just makes the situation worse.

As far as I know, there are seven Mustangs on display in Indonesia.
F-347 at the Satria Mandala museum. F-347 is plausible. The instrument panel is not the standard P-51D/K panel, so it’s possibly one of the Mustangs purchased from US surplus around 1960.

F-303 at Halim Perdanakusuma airport. F-303 was the Mustang usually assigned to Leo Wattimena, quite a character and possibly the most famous AURI pilot because of his aerobatic antics and hot blood. Two retired Mustangs pilots told me they think that the Mustang at Halim is no the original F-303.

F-338 at the TNI-AU Headquarters. No other info available. Most probably not the real F-338.

F-362 at the TNI-AU Headquarters. Randy will tell us more in his coming book.

F-363 on pole at Malang AFB. Randy will tell us more in his coming book.

F-338 at the museum in Yogyakarta. Was previously displayed as F-361. I agree with Randy that this is most probably the tail of Cavalier F-361 attached to another Mustang, even possibly parts from two Mustangs. This Mustang still has a fuselage fuel tank, but some cockpit features would be more suited for a civilian Mustang.

354 at Ambarawa. It could be F-354, a Mustang purchased around 1960 from US surplus. There is still an ANG radio call plate on the instrument panel that reads 511526. Either this Mustang is 45-11526, or it has the panel of 45-11526. The Mustang is supposed to represent a Dutch Mustang, and many people believe a Dutch Mustang was shot down by the Indonesians and crashed into the Ambarawa lake, while actually it was a RAF Thunderbolt. Originally the museum staff had mistakenly painted French roundels on this Mustang. The mistake was corrected during the early 1990’s when somebody from the Salis war bird association visited, trying to purchase the plane, and told them of the mistake.

Hope this helps,
Marc

Great topic which I wonder if it will ever be solved!

Here are some bits and pieces to throw into the melting pot BUT sorry I cannot guarantee the accuracy of the information.

F-347 in 1992 used to have a sign as part of the display which said it was a Cavalier Aircraft Corporation aircraft and also gave a brief history of the aircraft from 1950 to 1976.

I have a letter on file dated November 1981 from the United States Defense Liaison Group, Indonesia, regarding the Indonesian Mustangs which states that the 8 MAP supplied aircraft had serials as follows;

F-360 = 44-13260N
F-361 = 44-845658
F-362 = 44-44229
F-363 = 44-72777
F-364 = 44-11447N
F-365 = 44-74190
F-366 = 44-73267
F-367 = 44-74827N

(Some of these USAF serials I think you may find are a bit doubtful.)

Reference is also made to 16 aircraft supplied in the F-344 to F-359 block but only one USAF serial is listed, against F-344 of 44-74910 which crashed.

I also have in my collection a photograph of 8 Mustang fuselages (firewall back) awaiting refurbishment in Bandung, Indonesia, by TNI airmen under the supervision of Cavalier personnel. One of the fuselages has large numbers "962" below the cockpit, so what was the source of this fuselage?

I assume Randy and others have the link between some of the H- block and USAF serials. Some details covering 12 of 21 aircraft were published in a Dutch book (sorry I do not have the name of it) many years ago. The missing link is obviously the H- to F- block conversions.

Thanks for the great read.

FITD

FITD

I'd love to see that photo of those 8 airframes... (as Marc will, too)

can you post it here or send through e-mail martin [at] swissmustangs.ch

I will post photographs of the surviving AURI / TNI-AU F-51's later on.

Marc, Randy and I have been discussing the Indonesian Mustangs for some time and have pooled quite some data and photographs.


Cordially
Martin

_________________
Flying is easy: just learn how to throw yourself at the ground and miss

some amendments (in red) , although Cavalier aircraft were newly built from components taken from various aircraft and therefore no ID can be put on those airframes - the reference you give is assumption of airframes that were consumed at the Cavalier facility for the Cavalier programme. The information given is simply to show that things are rather confusing.



Martin

_________________
Flying is easy: just learn how to throw yourself at the ground and miss

Hi,

‘962’ is in my opinion 44-74962, a.k.a. FF-962, one of the airframes acquired from surplus by AURI around 1960. The fact that this photo must have been taken by the US technicians involved in the Peace Pony programs in 1971/1972 proves in my opinion that this airframe never flew with AURI, never received a F-3xx serial, and probably served as source of spares.

H- blocks were used by the Dutch ML, and F-blocks by AURI, the 3xx numbers apparently remained the same.

Like Martin, I have 44-74910 attached to F-351, I believe it remained Steven Johnson’s personal airplane.

Regarding a crash of F-344, that’s news to me. I’m very interested in additional information like date, place and conditions of crash. Thanks in advance,

Cheers!
Marc

I don't know where the United States Defense Liaison Group, Indonesia, got their data for their November 1981 letter. Is this the letter to Paul Coggan?

Having spoken in depth with the individual who built the Peace Pony II aircraft (F 362 through F 366), I can assure you that those serial numbers in the letter have no relation to the airframes that were actually assigned those AURI IDs.

At least one of those serials, offhand, belongs to ANOTHER non-Cavalier AURI Mustang -- 44-72777, which had the AURI ID F 344 and was one of the in-country modified aircraft. That airplane is now N151D "Sparky".

So, if I had to guess, I'd say that the United States Defense Liaison Group, Indonesia, in their letter appended serials of other AURI Mustangs to those AURI IDs.

Wow, I'm impressed with the knowledge assembled here.