Sat Dec 25, 2004 3:56 pm
Not to add too much fuel to the fire: However, if hundreds of these planes were brought back then maybe Bush would take warbirds more seriously and make Lake Michigan a Free For All.
Sat Dec 25, 2004 4:59 pm
HarvardIV wrote:Not to add too much fuel to the fire: However, if hundreds of these planes were brought back then maybe Bush would take warbirds more seriously and make Lake Michigan a Free For All.
Not sure that I see the connection myself, there are already a couple of hundred P-51s out there. I can't see what possible connection these recoveries have with the US Navy issue.
If a few dozen P-38 wrecks are recovered, it will take many, many years to get significant numbers back in the air. Look at the P-39s and P-40s recovered by Tallichet in the 70s. How many of them have flown?
Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:55 pm
The connection is that the Navy is being silly about protecting their planes, and the other service wouldn't care.
Sat Dec 25, 2004 8:33 pm
Hi all
Some points.
The people recovering this stuff know it's value and they will not let values decline by pulling out too much too soon and in any case we don't know how much is in good condition. Although I suspect there is much in very good condition.
There will not be a free for all with this - it is strictly controlled and a secure site so there will not be ant funny business from what I have seen.
I really suggest that this is not blown out of proportion - I think the process will take a few years and people need to put it in the context of a long term project.
Regards
John Parker
Some points.
The people recovering this stuff know it's value and they will not let values decline by pulling out too much too soon and in any case we don't know how much is in good condition. Although I suspect there is much in very good condition.
There will not be a free for all with this - it is strictly controlled and a secure site so there will not be ant funny business from what I have seen.
I really suggest that this is not blown out of proportion - I think the process will take a few years and people need to put it in the context of a long term project.
Regards
John Parker
Sun Dec 26, 2004 12:22 pm
True, John, but this is the kind of news most of us have hoped to hear for most of our lives. Its hard to contain the excitement when you think of up to 600 P-38s, plus who knows what else.
P-38 Wrecks
Sun Dec 26, 2004 11:55 pm
Gentlemen,
its all about supply and demand!
If the people doing this recovery / dig have an immediate market for airframes they will sell. Its called making money and we can all say how we are dedicated to these warbirds and their history, at the end of the day I doubt there would be too many of us who would not love to be in a position of digging these various types up and selling them - thus making a living from the proceeds. I agree with John, it could take years and there are political implications to consider too, after all we are talking about the phillipines. Having said that, I can't quite agree that this will not impact on the overall warbird market. Being a collector of P-39 and P-40 bits and pieces I have noticed that, particularly here in Australia, more and more people are coming forward either with parts of projects. I suspect, and this is only a suspicion, that this could be related to the recent production of parts and projects from Wangaratta. Previously impossible or hard to get parts can now be manufactured, yes for a price, but I would argue at a price much cheaper than before. If the market becomes aware of future aircraft becoming available, particularly popular types like the P-38, then collectors will simply wait for these to appear. I understand that initially some of these birds will be very expensive, but market pressures will force the prices down and we can predict a pendulum type effect ie P-38's come onto the market, buyers vacate committments to existing projects ie sell off their P-39's or P-40's etc thus making these types cheaper again.
I just can't see that recovering so many of any type of aircraft would not have an influence on the market. Competition is a wonderful thing!
cheers
Digger
its all about supply and demand!
If the people doing this recovery / dig have an immediate market for airframes they will sell. Its called making money and we can all say how we are dedicated to these warbirds and their history, at the end of the day I doubt there would be too many of us who would not love to be in a position of digging these various types up and selling them - thus making a living from the proceeds. I agree with John, it could take years and there are political implications to consider too, after all we are talking about the phillipines. Having said that, I can't quite agree that this will not impact on the overall warbird market. Being a collector of P-39 and P-40 bits and pieces I have noticed that, particularly here in Australia, more and more people are coming forward either with parts of projects. I suspect, and this is only a suspicion, that this could be related to the recent production of parts and projects from Wangaratta. Previously impossible or hard to get parts can now be manufactured, yes for a price, but I would argue at a price much cheaper than before. If the market becomes aware of future aircraft becoming available, particularly popular types like the P-38, then collectors will simply wait for these to appear. I understand that initially some of these birds will be very expensive, but market pressures will force the prices down and we can predict a pendulum type effect ie P-38's come onto the market, buyers vacate committments to existing projects ie sell off their P-39's or P-40's etc thus making these types cheaper again.
I just can't see that recovering so many of any type of aircraft would not have an influence on the market. Competition is a wonderful thing!
cheers
Digger
Sun Jan 02, 2005 9:11 pm
Hello:
A friend in the Philippines informed me on this regarding the P-38s:
A friend in the Philippines informed me on this regarding the P-38s:
Hello Chris,
If my memory serves me right, the P-38 that the aussies found was "blocked" by authorities even before it was fully excavated but this I need to confirm this thru my sources. Most likely it was at Clark wherein they scrapped hundreds of P-38s near the Sacobia River. I do have some of the photos. Will get back you on this.
Tony
Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:52 pm
Hi Chris
No this was not an Aussie recovery but a Phillipines one - the earlier one was the one which sparked interest in the Philipines as to what was buried there and was a few years back - no direct connection. The only tie here was I gave them locations and info and was invited to attend the dig. There was no private - individual component to this recovery and it will happen if at all as an official effort.
A lot of damage has been done there by individuals thinking they can just walk in and do things their way. the Philipines doesn't work that way and they really resent it.
Regards
John P
No this was not an Aussie recovery but a Phillipines one - the earlier one was the one which sparked interest in the Philipines as to what was buried there and was a few years back - no direct connection. The only tie here was I gave them locations and info and was invited to attend the dig. There was no private - individual component to this recovery and it will happen if at all as an official effort.
A lot of damage has been done there by individuals thinking they can just walk in and do things their way. the Philipines doesn't work that way and they really resent it.
Regards
John P
Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:06 am
Hi John:
Ok, Tony will send me some photos in a couple days, and I'll email those to you and anyone who is interested.
Chris
Ok, Tony will send me some photos in a couple days, and I'll email those to you and anyone who is interested.
Chris
Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:30 am
John:
This sounds almost like a symmantics issue. THe thing that doesn't add up is that Tony pretty well pin-pointed it to the same area you're talking about. Clearly, the Philippines gov't has denied permission to that site. Whether Ausies or Filipinos are involved wouldn't matter, because the site in general sounds like it's been denied.
This sounds almost like a symmantics issue. THe thing that doesn't add up is that Tony pretty well pin-pointed it to the same area you're talking about. Clearly, the Philippines gov't has denied permission to that site. Whether Ausies or Filipinos are involved wouldn't matter, because the site in general sounds like it's been denied.
Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:23 am
Hi Chris
There are several areas he could be talking about as they dumped aircraft all along the river/ravine so I have no real idea - I can say that the original recovery and the latest were in the same site,
The Fhilipinos doing the work are the Officials so I don't think it is symantic - they will control the lot from an official viewpoint - there is nobody unofficial involved in this.
I would love to see the earlier photos if I can -
Thanks for this
John P
There are several areas he could be talking about as they dumped aircraft all along the river/ravine so I have no real idea - I can say that the original recovery and the latest were in the same site,
The Fhilipinos doing the work are the Officials so I don't think it is symantic - they will control the lot from an official viewpoint - there is nobody unofficial involved in this.
I would love to see the earlier photos if I can -
Thanks for this
John P
Re: P-38 Wrecks
Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:41 pm
is there any news on this big dig of p-38 wreckage and what ever else was in there?
Re: P-38 Wrecks
Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:24 am
Travisd80elcam wrote:is there any news on this big dig of p-38 wreckage and what ever else was in there?
Apparently all BS.
Personally, I don't see how or why anyone would go to such lengths to make up a story like this...especially a long standing member of the community. Even Col Rohr was tied into it.
I believe there may be a few partial fire damaged hulks left in the ground at this site (they were definitely torched) and the discovery of one of these may have been the trigger for the whole story - with a lot of wishful thinking thrown into the mix. Such a great shame. There were definitely huge numbers of aircraft disposed of in this way at wars end but I fear the post war scrappers got them all a few years later. If just one pit remained....we all wanted it to be true.