CG-4A to land in Normandy 2009?

airnutz · **Posted:** Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:01 pm

gliderman1 wrote:

The Thunderball snatch plane was a special C-130 not a B-17.

Gliderman1..I believe you may be confusing the "Thunderball" snatch with the John Wayne movie,
"The Green Berets" where a C-130 with Fulton's Skyhook performed the snatch.

The B-17 in "Thunderball" was actually a development bird for the Skyhook system.

Wheels up · **Posted:** Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:23 pm

gliderman1 wrote:

Most of the plywood on the CG-4A wings was 3/32".

That cornfuses me.....I have several rib die cuttings and they are 1/32 3ply. This was a common thickness used on Waco wing ribs that are in the tip bow area on their powered models. I know a fellow who pulled out MANY sheets from the glider program at Northwestern Aeronautical. Their spruce and cuttings were provided by the Villaume Box Company in Minneapolis and the plywood was made by Roddis Plywood of Marshfield, Wisconsin. Much of the plywood he has is 90deg mahogany 5foot X 9foot sheets X .085 thick. The 45deg 5' X 9' mahog sheets are .100 thick. He has lots more smaller sheets at .070 and 1/32. We've made lots of wing parts from these stockpiles of surplus plywood. The model builders soaked up most of the 1/64 to 1/32 wood as it has more limited use in powered full scale.

gliderman1 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:33 pm

Sorry, my error. I have not researched it but have always thought the C-130 was the original Fulton system snatch plane. I will have to find Veazey's papers and read them again.

Tim Landers · **Posted:** Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:54 pm

This a very informative thread. A friend, Curtiss "Goldie " Goldman, has some very interesting stories! He was a WWII Glider Pilot in the 441st TCG, 99th Sq. He flew in every major combat campaign in the European Theater, including Market Garden and Groesbeck, Holland.

Tim

gliderman1 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:20 pm

Wheels up,

I can't find my plywood info sheets. My filing system is worse than my mind. I am remembering the wing covering to be 3/32". The only plywood samples I have are approx. 5/64" (my best guess using 1/8" graduated rule). They are not wing plywood, I was told it was for seats and side windows.

If you have any plywood pieces with the Roddis stamp, I know someone who would like them for the Roddis stamp.

gliderman1 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:27 pm

Tim,

Have you and the Rev. been to the museum at Lubbock?

Record his stories about each of his missions.

airnutz · **Posted:** Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:50 pm

gliderman1 wrote:

Sorry, my error. I have not researched it but have always thought the C-130 was the original Fulton system snatch plane. I will have to find Veazey's papers and read them again.

Different pigeonholes in Skyhook adds to the confusion. The early project began with USN P2V and progressed on to C-130.
The B-17 tests were a few years later. I should have more accurately said the B-17 was a Skyhook development
bird for CIA uses of Skyhook equipment..a parallel Fulton project with Intermountain Aviation's B-17, N809Z.
Their success got them invited to participate in Operation Cold Feet. Here's a webpage giving a
general outline of these projects... B-17 is 1/2page down..
http://home.earthlink.net/~quade/pickuplines.html

By all means, check Veazey's papers...original stuff is good to check webpages and memories or notes. :wink:

gliderman1 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:15 pm

airnutz,

I got only to the second line before I got stuck. The dentist who invented the mail snatch was Adams not Brown and I am sure the poles were not 54 feet apart. Somewhere in the original Adams system was a funnel or Vee shaped sort of framework on the ground to guide and align the snatch hook in order to properly catch the bag.

airnutz · **Posted:** Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:34 pm

gliderman1 wrote:

airnutz,

I got only to the second line before I got stuck. The dentist who invented the mail snatch was Adams not Brown and I am sure the poles were not 54 feet apart. Somewhere in the original Adams system was a funnel or Vee shaped sort of framework on the ground to guide and align the snatch hook in order to properly catch the bag.

True, Dr. Lytle S. Adams was the man and I've wondered why they've not corrected that typo...
it's been there at least 4 years!
Like I said, the link is a general outline to Fulton's work. That's why I suggested
you vette the net and memory stuff against Veasey's papers

I originally was hunting B-23 stuff on the web and ran across the glider stuff and it was a 'passing
interest kinda thing', as was Adams, All American, Fulton, CIA snatches, etc.
I kept these notes in a notebook over the years and it and I are a bit of a mess.
The error you corrected of mine regarding the 7G pullforce was failure of mine to see
a 'decimal point' in the notes. The notes were checked and read .7G pullforce! :roll:

I'm a technical kinda guy and over time I've become more interested in the history and technical details of
aerial recovery apparatus. I read an incorrect revue of the of the book,
"The Airway to Everywhere: A History of All American Aviation, 1937-1953"
by W. David Lewis and William F. Trimble, and purchased it last year. The
revue was incorrect in that, it stated there were good technical drawings and
photos of Adam's and All American's developments....NOT!!! But it did have
an reference in the footnotes for the, AAA, Inc. "Air Pick-up Handbook" of
1947, which may have the drawings and photos I'm looking for.

However, there is some very good data in the book which carries one thru Adam's and
All American's involvement developing these devices. This book would probably be very
handy to you in your research...I don't know how correct all of it is, but it's worth having
in order to gain an insight into the early work.

In this book you'll find, as you alluded to, a large scoop to direct the line to the targeted mailbag.
This elaborate 'scoop' cost $3500 to build in the early 30's and you needed one
at each pick-up site. The 54 foot rope and poles were a simplification of the snatch system
in order to eliminate the 'scoop'. This is a simplification, and you'll understand
why when you read the book...I'm unable to find the exact page I'm looking for right now!
Nice chatting with you Sir!

EDIT: for addition and corrections.

Wheels up · **Posted:** Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:10 am

They can get some parts off Ebay.....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/WACO-Tai ... 0209644557

They look like the real deal to me (here's the aft section of a CG-4 in a local barn.....

gliderman1 · **Posted:** Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:23 am

Check out this article, just published in this Qtr issue of Joint Forces Quarterly. Thoms has done a lot of research in the past three years on the combat snatches. I'll try to get him on here.

http://www.ndu.edu/inss/Press/jfq_pages ... i48/29.pdf

Note the cover picture. You can see this image tagged as a D-day Normandy photo, etc. It actually is General McAuliff briefing for Market, 3 months before he became the "Nuts" man. Also, whoever did the layout for the article squished the interior CG-10A photo from side to side. It should be slightly wider than tall.

I contacted Mr. Trimble about 4 years ago and received one of his books which I have read only parts of depending on what I am looking/checking. He states the human snatches were done at Wright Field and is only repeating an error that apparently began with a 1946 AAF publication. The single 1943 and the 3 snatches in Sept 1944 were done at CCAAF along with all the sheep and dead weight snatch trials before the first human snatch. There was one "dangle and reel-me-in" test done at Wright. Norm Rintoul was pilot of that first human snatch. The AAF wanted to try it first with a chimpanzee. Rintoul told them if they did, he was going out the other side when the chimp was pulled into the Stinson.

Lee Jett, who advised Thoms, was involved in these tests. By 1946, Jett had performed over 2,500 snatches of everything; sheep, human, 4A, 10a, 13A, 15A. I don't know if he ever snatched the 3 or the 3A. He was taught by "The Saint" and Rintoul. The three of them did all the early snatches that were done done all over the U.S. Jett was re-assigned from CCAAF to TC - Stout and from there he began the training of TC pilots on the snatch procedure. Bud Berry did several of the Normandy and Holland CG-4A recovery snatches and one of the Remagen bridge snatches.

doug wilber · **Posted:** Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:35 am

I am the son of a former gliderman of the 326th Airborne Engineer Battalion/101st AB Division. I have heard that a CG-4A Waco is being assembled to fly next year in the 65th anniversity of the D-Day and Operation Market-Garden operations. Ever since as a kid I saw "The Longest Day" I have always wanted to ride in a WWII glider. Are there are any plans to have passengers or a co-pilot needed for this glider?

doug wilber

gliderman1 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:39 am

http://www.esharethis.com/default.asp

Doug, go to this site and send email that you are interested and would like to help however you can. Down at bottom right is temporary site access to WWII Glider Corps. You will see some really great photos.

Because of liability, it is doubtful passengers will be allowed. In any case, if there are passengers, you are next in line BEHIND me.

Charles Day

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CG-4A to land in Normandy 2009?

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