Warbird Information Exchange

Skybolt,I must have missed something,as I haven't seen a mention of OdiM in this thread.That's a handle that my old c/p Chuck Ott uses.I think that it means "Old Dude in the Mountains",or something like that.I suppose that this would be a good time for the second half of the Ft.Huachuca story,as Chuck was involved.

We'd had a problem with the right main tire on Tanker 22 being seriously out of balance all season.I'd complained about it and Pete,the mechanic ended up gluing abut a pound of wheel weights to one spot on the wheel that what was opposite to a percieved heavy place on the wheel.However,with the wheel installed on the airplane,it isn't easy to balance it accurately.The bottom line being that there was a very serious vibration starting at 85 kts on the take-off run.Incidentally,T22 was the only B-17 that I flew that had an airspeed indicator that read in knots.The others were all in miles per hour.So,our rotation speed loaded was 100 kts in T22.

When we left FHU for Alamogordo,the vibration was severe enough that I tried to raise the right wing as much as possible between 85-100 kts to relieve the stress.When we retracted the gear,the right main stayed down.As I've mentioned before,the gear on the B-17 is retracted electrically.Each gear has it's own electric motor and you can manually run individual wheels up or down using a hand crank.The mains have a number of universal joints connecting some none too substantial looking rods between the gear itself and the motor and hand crank socket.This whole drive train moves when the gear retracts or extends.

I was always a bit reluctant to crank the gear up because you were in real trouble if something in that "monkey motion" happened to break while the gear was up or in transit.That was the reason for the B-17 landing with retracted main in the movie "Tora Tora Tora".That wasn't done as part of the script.It usually isn't a great idea to retract a gear that might not come back down.That said,I probably hold the world record for cranking up the right main gear on a B-17.When I flew in Tanker 65 as c/p in 1975 and 1976,we had a problem with the "squat switch" on the right gear.

On B-17's,or at least on T65,there was a squat switch on each gear.These are microswitches that sense when the weight is off of the gear as the oleo strut extends when the airplane leaves the ground.As long as the squat switch thinks that the strut is compressed,as it is with the airplane on the ground,it won't allow the gear to retract.On 65,the squat switch on the left main would prevent or allow all three gear to retract.There were separate switchs on the tail gear and the right main that worked to prevent just the individual gear from retracting.

I washed T65 a lot and for some reason,the microswitch on the right main would get wet inside it's housing and short out,which would make it always think that the strut was compressed.We tried all sorts of methods to water proof the housing,but it tended to be a recurring problem.I ended up having to crank up the right main on 11 occasions,including twice where it happened 3 times in one day.It's a real killer.The hand crank has a very short throw and it takes well over 200 turns to retract (or extend) a main gear.The first 50 are easy and the last 50 aren't bad,but in between you are fighting the slipsteam.It doesn't help that the socket that you connect the hand crank to is almost at floor level.

So,when the right main failed to retract on Tanker 22,I thought that it was the same problem.Chuck started cranking and I tried to keep the airspeed down as much as I could to lessen the wind resistance.He got it maybe half way up and I had to swich places with him.I used to joke that the REAL reason that a B-17 had a 10 man crew was because the might have to crank up the gear.Eventually,the gear was in the well and we continued on to Alamogordo.

When we got into the pattern at ALM,the gear came down normally,which is always a relief.After we parked,Chuck checked the squat switches and all were working normally.He did some more checking and found that there was actually a severely worn part in the retract mechanism on the gear that had been damaged by the out of balance tire.We were lucky that it came back down.

The next day was our day off,and Pete brought us another wheel and tire and replacement parts for the gear.There was a bit of a problem getting the use of a wing jack from Black Hills Aviation at ALM because the owner Arnold Kolb and Tom Hammond at Evergreen were fueding about something.Arnie wouldn't supply the jack until Tom paid some bill that was in dispute.I finally talked to Arnie asked him to rent the jack to me personally and I'd pay the bill.He gave us the jack and billed Evergreen.I have some pictures that pertain to this.I'll post them when I get them scanned.

Larry;
I forgot to mention that it was sure sad to see Evergreen park there P-2V's and just let them rot away at Marana. According to Chuck I guess #141 had some serious corrosion in the belly, I see that it was repainted and flown up to McMinnville, OR and put on display. I can remember when #141 and #143 (may have been 142) were flying out of Reno and Minden back in 87 and 88. That was when Don Mayes was still flying for them. That was back in the days when the pilots could still mechanic, there was a time when Don and his copilot had a bet with uncle Al Reddick at Classics In Aviation in Reno for ever back-fire on start up it was a six pack. I remember they were changing a couple of jugs on the #1 engine and they were doing the final torque on the last two bolts of the jug and they broke off! You could hear Don all the way down on the other end of the airport. The bolts broke off below the flange so the had to take the jug back off and then take out what was left of the shanks, So they get that done get new bolts put it back together, go to run the engine and she popped and banged a couple of times but was back in service. After that entire episode Al told them not to worry about the bet he figures they had enough torture with the broken bolts.

Scott........

Scott,I can just here the hollering from the broken stud business.I remember Don Mayes getting kicked out of a motel in Reno (either the Ramda or the Holiday Inn) when he mooned the band after having one too many.We did our best to pretend that we'd never seen him before.Quite a guy.

Here are a few pictures of Tanker 22 and Chuck Ott.

1&2 Tanker 22 on jacks at Alamogordo after returning from Ft.Huachuca

3. On jacks the same day showing the Rosenbaum retardant tank

4. Chuck Ott and the Evergreen maintenance staff plotting their next move

5&6 Chuck Ott in Tanker 22 on the way to the Chama Fire near Santa Fe on 28 May 83

7-10 Tanker 22 at the Albuquerque Tanker Base during the Chama Fire 28 May 83

I've read a lot of posts from him on the airtanker board never really knowing who he is, but I saw that same picture of him sticking the tanks on the -17 somewhere else with the caption that he was your c/p. So I was just trying to connect the dots.
Thanks,
Bret

You never know what to expect in the tanker business.On 6 August 1980,I was at McCall,Idaho waiting to be called back to the Rattlesnake Fire on the Nez Perce Forest north of McCall.I was taking pictures on the ramp when,literally "Out of the Blue",the Blue Angels flew over the tanker base.We found out later that the leader of the Blues had a buddy in McCall and,as they were passing by anyway......

Larry,
In your tanker experiences, did you ever run across Bill Dempsey?
I have met him twice, first time was back in 1976 at Olathe NAS..noe Century Airport...Olathe, Kansas...when he owned at least one B-17 tanker....I think this is the one now based in Palm Springs, Ca.
The second time at his place in Rantoul, Ks. Didn't have a lot of time to get up-close and personal with the guy, but I do have an invite back to help turn wrenches and chat.....Just want someone else's input, if you have any... Thanks, Gary

Bill Dempsey is a very interesting man, he had quite a few DC-4 air tankers in use through the 80's. My dad told me that the Dempsey retardant tank was the first generation of the constant flow tank, these are the types of tanks that Aero Union designs and manufactures for their P-3 air tankers, which the Forest Service wants on all air tankers. Dempsey's tank design was unique in that the doors were all in line. so it was like a two door tank front to back. I know Sis Q used a same simular design on some of the DC-6 air tankers. I'm sure Larry can correct me on this if I have made in errors, I'm working off of memory from many years ago of the retardant tanks I saw out in Avra Valley, AZ on some of his DC-4's stored there.
Scott........

Gary Hilton,I sent you a PM in answer to your question on Bill Dempsey (substitute T150 for T151 in the PM).Also for Scott,I'm not sure about the constant flow tank on Dempsey's DC-4's.I'll have to see if I can find Jim Baughman or Ted Mundell and ask them about it.I do know that Jim always made excellent drops with Bill's DC-4 Tanker 150,but that doesn't necessarily mean that the tank was anything special.As I mentioned earlier in one of my threads,I'd love to try out one of Aero Union's constant flow tanks on the DC-7.Who knows? It could happen.

Here are a couple of pictures of Jim Baughman at Porterville in 1982 with the "Walkin' Hawk".It had some sort of a problem and fell out of it's nest in the retardant tanks.Jim calmed the bird down and returned it to the nest.It was flying a day or two later.

Larry;
When I say first generation of the constant flow tank, I should have stated the reason. My dad and a couple of other tanker pilots told me that the Dempsey tank made an awesome drop pattern and and left little error for gaps in the line(always have the human factor of course), kind of like todays constant flow tank system that Aero Union has. Now I heard Hank had Aero Union tanks in his C-130's is this correct? If they did why not build a tank using the door system out of one the C-130 tanks and build into a tank for the DC-7.
Scott..........

Scott,I see your point as both the Sis-Q DC-6 tank and Dempsey DC-4 tanks were long and deep tanks wth narrow doors near the center line.This gave considerable head pressure and having the doors in the middle,rather than spread across the tank (as in the picture of Tanker 22"s tank in an earlier post) tends to concentrate the retardant line and helps with overlap between doors.All 3 of TBM/Butler's C-130's have the Aero Union RADS constant flow tank,but it isn't adaptable to the DC-7.

The pictures below are mostly consecutive,except for #7,which is actually T20 landing.All are from 7-9 August 80.The last 2 pictures show the Rattlesnake Fire on the Nez Perce N.F on different days.McCall had a 5200' runway at 5021' elevation with a fairly steep gradient lowest to the south.The hill at the end isn't helpful.

Larry;
To bad about the RADS tanks. I like the photographs keep them coming. Are you still down south where its warm? Its 19 degrees and wind is 16 to 20 out of the west here in Wyoming today!
Scott...........

Scott,I'm still in Florida.Everybody is complaining (me included) because a cold front came through last night.The low was 40 and the high around 60 with a north wind.I checked the Redmond aviation weather report and the temp bottomed out at zero there,but was up to 36 at noon.I have to head home in the middle of March.That's early enough for me.

The first picture,I think,is at Porterville in September 1980.It looks like I'm following two Sis-Q DC-6's in Tanker 68.I can make out a "4" on the rudder of the '6 thats farthest away

Pictures 2&3 are Tanker 65 at Paso Robles in 1982.Walt Johnson was based there in Tanker 87 and I was on the CDF contract in Porterville.Every week on the morning of Walt's day off,I'd fly over to Paso to cover and go back to PTV before dark.

Pictures 4-6 show T 87 (a C-119C) getting some day off maintenance on #2 engine,which is a P&W R-4360-20

Picture 7 is H&P's C-119F (N8093) getting a cylinder change on #2 Wright R-3350-89 in Homer during the 1981 Alaska Fish Haul for comparison with the 4360

Question, back in the day why wasn't the DC-3/C-47 used as a firebomber? I think it would have made a good one.

I don't know that it would honestly. It's got a limited payload compared to a lot of these other airplanes, it's got an extremely limited single engine performance, and I don't think that it's really setup to accept something like that. All of the sprayer bar installations I've seen on the C-47 involve piping that exits the side of the aircraft instead of the bottom.

If all those reasons aren't enough, most of the C-47s that were still flying then were either still hauling freight or smoke jumpers (Like Ready'4'Duty ). I quite like the idea of the C-47/DC-3 as a smokejumping airplane than a firebomber.

For spookyboss and CAPFlyer,I believe that some experimentation was carried out with a DC-3 in the early days of the tanker business,but that was before I was involved.I'm almost sure that I've seen pictures of a tanked DC-3 dropping water or retardant somewhere.If I get a chance to talk to Milo Peltzer,the ultimate air tanker historian/photographer,I'll ask him about it.

Here's a picture of one of TBM's C-117D's in 1982 with a tank from an F7F on a dolly up against the belly for a test of the possibilty of tanking the airplane.In the end,it just wasn't considered to be economically sound.CAPFlyer has some valid points that were also brought up by TBM concerning the Super 3.Also,it would require 2 pilots for a 1000-1500 gl load.I think that about 1200 gl was the highest practical limit.As to single engine capability,that's a valid point.One advantage to a tanker,though is that you can go from max take-off weight to empty in about 2 seconds when you really need to.That isn't the answer to all engine out problems,but it helps.I have another photo of this lash-up taken from the front,but I can't seem to find it at the moment.TBM ended up tanking one of the three C-123's that they aquired instead.I have a number of C-123 pictures,mostly from when they arrived at Sequioa Field from the boneyard.I'll post those sometime.

All sorts of airplanes were experimented with in the early days (circa 1958-1961).These included operational N3N's and Stearmans,as well as a couple of Twin Beeches.I have a picture somewhere of a nose engine being added to a Beech (possible an AT-11) by Cal-Nat Airways at Grass Valley,California for use as a tanker.I don't think that it actually made it into use.I'm not sure what the nose engine was,other than it was a flat engine,possibly an O-470.I didn't actually see the airplane,but Buck Radcliffe,who used to fly for Cal-Nat gave me some pictures of it in the mid-60's.