Warbird Information Exchange

Hello Everyone:

More research on Rosenbalm Aviation's PB4Y2 that ditched in Diamond Lake:

I finally reached someone who was on the salvage operation at Diamond Lake for the PB4Y-2 . It ditched in the shallow end of the lake. I am told that a picture still hangs in the lodge at Diamond Lake of the plane in the water. The crew from Rosenbalm Aviation floated the plane to shore and used a D-8 Cat to pull it out onto the parking lot. They then removed the engines, gauges and other usable parts. They left it on display for awhile and the public took souvenirs. They then demolished the remainder and hauled it away. They couldn't tow it out as two trees were in the way and they weren't allowed to cut them down.

Chris

Chris,

Thanks for the info on Tanker 85 and Rosenbalm's bio. Here s/b a photo of the PB4Y in Diamond lake (scroll down).

http://www.butleraircraft.com/29B.html

If memory serves, they ran out of gas before ditching in Diamond Lk. Running out of gas lead to the loss of several PB4Ys. I wonder if they did not have gas gages?

I grew up in Medford and started riding my bike to the airport in the late 50s. The Rosenbalm aircraft based there fueled a life long interest in airtankers. Dick Foy went on to help found the company that became Aero Union.

Ron

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Ron Olsen

Webmaster
www.ronsarchive.com
(contact info there)

Hi Ron:

I think they had gauges, a relative of Mr. Rosenbalm sent me this message:

"Chris Miller,
Regarding the PB4Y-2 that had to ditch into Diamond Lake when it ran out of gas July 27, 1970. It was removed from the lake. It landed in a shallow part of the lake and they floated it to shore with drums, etc. It was an expensive failure to fill gas tanks before another retardant drop on the part of the pilot !"

It's a pretty interesting story..

Air Classics or Warbirds Intl had great article written By Milo Peltzer (SP?)on the PBY's last spring.
Interesting note, the NTSB report claims the Aircaft did not have fuel gauges....

14 CFR Part 91 General Aviation
Event occurred Monday, July 27, 1970 in DIAMOND LAKE, OR
Aircraft: CONVAIR PB4Y-2, registration: N3191G

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FILE DATE LOCATION AIRCRAFT DATA INJURIES FLIGHT PILOT DATA F S M/N PURPOSE----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------3-3094 70/7/27 DIAMOND LAKE,OREG CONVAIR PB4Y-2 CR- 0 0 2 COMMERCIAL COMMERCIAL, FL.INSTR., TIME - 1415 N3191G PX- 0 0 0 ASSOC FIRE CTL ACTIVITY AGE 53, 12707 TOTAL DAMAGE-SUBSTANTIAL OT- 0 0 0 HOURS, 14 IN TYPE, INSTRUMENT RATED. DEPARTURE POINT INTENDED DESTINATION MEDFORD,OREG MEDFORD,OREG TYPE OF ACCIDENT PHASE OF OPERATION ENGINE FAILURE OR MALFUNCTION IN FLIGHT: OTHER DITCHING LANDING: LEVEL OFF/TOUCHDOWN PROBABLE CAUSE(S) PILOT IN COMMAND - INADEQUATE PREFLIGHT PREPARATION AND/OR PLANNING PILOT IN COMMAND - MISMANAGEMENT OF FUEL MISCELLANEOUS ACTS,CONDITIONS - FUEL EXHAUSTION FACTOR(S) MISCELLANEOUS ACTS,CONDITIONS - JETTISONED LOAD MISCELLANEOUS ACTS,CONDITIONS - FAILURE OF TWO OR MORE ENGINES MISCELLANEOUS ACTS,CONDITIONS - AIRCRAFT CAME TO REST IN WATER COMPLETE POWER LOSS - COMPLETE ENGINE FAILURE/FLAMEOUT-3 ENGINES EMERGENCY CIRCUMSTANCES - FORCED LANDING OFF AIRPORT ON WATER REMARKS- WATER 8 FT DEEP. NO FUEL GAGES ON ACFT.

Mr. Darnell:

Actually, that's interesting. I'm no expert pilot, but I never rely on my fuel gauges, only on a secondary basis. I always compute fuel consumption based on True Airspeed, altitude, temp, and relative winds.

Chris

Woops, I mean I calculate range based on the above factors, and fuel consumption based on power settings, altitude, and OAT. Rarely are the gauges used like I said above, unless you suspect an anamoly of some kind.

Wouldn't this method be much less effective in a firefighting environment? On a typical fire, your going to switch from take off to cruise power and back quite a few times, having to return to base after every drop or two.

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Dan Johnson

If dropping retardant on a fire is as a dynamic environment as dropping bombs in combat, there is simply no way to "do the math" and figure out your fuel consumption.

There are too many power setting changes...too much fluctuation in OAT and relative wind due to the fire...too many real-time changes in run-in heading and egress heading. Unless you had a guy on the crew whose job it was *full time* to figure that stuff out, it simply could not be done. The pilot and crew have a ton of other things going through their mind (other than keeping tabs on gas to the Nth degree) with regard to the best way to apply the slurry to both fight the fire and provide a safe ingress/egress route for the airplane. Not to mention making sure they have terrain clearance, etc.

I imagine that the crews had sat down at one point with the fuel consumption charts and come up with some "rules of thumb" about gas comsumption...if you are loaded with such-and-such amount of retardant, you have this much range to-and-from the fire and this much loiter time over the target. In the bombing business we say "plan with a micrometer, write it down with a grease pencil, and execute with an axe." In other words, don't count on the numbers to work out exactly because there are so many moving parts to the equasion -- your arrcuracy will lessen the further away from the planning table you are.

By the nature of the business, if you use rules of thumb like that, you generally have to play it conservative because of the unknown factors. It's when you get into that "just one more drop..." mentality (that compaines whose bottom line *is* the bottom line often make their pilots use) when you push the limits and sometimes push them too far.

Well said gentlemen,

That's what makes flying so fun!

Was researching this PB4Y and located this old 2004 thread. Figured I'd update with a pic and current link to save someone else the search effort. The registry said it sank and nothing else.

http://www.butleraircraft.com/Tanker_Photos.html

Interesting that the airframe did not break in half, or at least it looks like it did not. I wonder if the retardant tank had anything to do with that?

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Always looking for WW2 Half-Tracks and Parts.

I think I remember a certain B-17 in the tanker industry, that landed with 3 feathered props....Maybe Larry could explain the dance that has to be done when calculating fuel in harsh atmospheres during those, shall we say, high pucker factor moments occur? I for one could see how it can easily happen.

Gary,

Would that be the B-17 who's pic is located at the above website?

John

Not sure if I was able to see all the photo's in above link, Coastie. My memory has deleted a lot of data as of late. I do know that there is a person that posts here on WIX , his name is Larry, cannot remember his last name...anyway he is a tanker pilot (Butler?) He posted a lot of cool tanker pictures, including the B-17 with all the prop blades who stopped to smile for the camera. Lotsa cool DC-7 tanker pics too. I am sure someone with a better memory than mine can lead you in the right direction...

The PB4Y-2 that is at the Yankee Air Museum, is that the same Privateer that is in lake?