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Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:30 am 
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If you're interested-

Some of you know that I recently checked out on the P38L ‘Ruff Stuff’ and have asked for comments about what it was like… this topic is an attempt to do that. I don’t really intend this to be an article… so it is not organized or written that way.. please forgive me. I would be happy to entertain any questions you might have… hopefully I can answer them.

First, let me say that I owe it all to Ron Fagen, the owner, for having faith in me that I won’t wreck his airplane (not to mention Erik Hokuf who put the airplane together and keeps it running)… I am very lucky. I am no expert, nor the best pilot around (that is unless we do a Butterfly Hi-Aspect setup… then I’ll get you<g>)… and I don’t have hundreds of hours in this airplane… this is just my perspective checking out to fly one of the coolest warbirds around. A quick note where I come from… I started out as an enlisted Marine… worked my way through college because I wanted to fly fighters… got into the USAF where I flew the F-4 and the F-15E… retired from a schoolhouse IP job with the 334th FS at Seymour Johnson and then tried the airline thing (which sucks by the way). I spent 9.5 years rebuilding my Dad’s Stearman, still have it, and currently own a AT-6C in SAAF colors. I’m probably like you I love warbirds… in particular fighters. I shoulda been flying Mustangs with the 4th in the ETO<g>.

So, how did I get to fly the P-38. One part background, and a very big part lucky. Training and checking out in one is very hard to do. There aren’t many flying… and instructors are hard to find. The way the FAA works is you need to fly with a qualified instructor to get recommended for the checkride… and then get the ride from a NDPER (designated pilot examiner). Of course the fact that the Lightning is a single seat airplane makes it a bit harder. There is no system like Lee Lauderback’s Stallion 51 to check pilots out in the Lightning.

I studied the book and the training films… the airplane is complex and it helps to have one to look at to make sense of how the plumbing works, etc. I did some recurrent training in a twin… remember this is a big twin, big engines, lots of horsepower and lots of torque. I went out to Chino and hung with Steve Hinton for several days… ground school, starting, taxiing their P-38 and doing the same in a B-25. We flew the B-25 as our recommendation airplane. The speeds are different, the sight picture is a bit different… but the two airplanes handle very similarly (except for the 38’s with boosted ailerons... Ruff Stuff is one). We did normal stuff, steep turns, single engine work, a normal landing, a no –flap landing, a go around, and a Single Engine landing. It was very through and Steve, besides being an excellent pilot, is a very good instructor.

Next was scheduling the checkride… this is a stars align kind of thing… gotta get your schedule, the airplane up and running, Verne Jobst (the NDPER) and Kevin Eldridge (as a qualified observer) all together at the same place/time.

We flew a Baron with Verne for the instrument approaches required for the type rating and then the Lightning… two sorties. The first sortie… remember this is solo… was normal stuff, with steep turns and a normal landing. The second sortie added single engine stuff… shut one down, make some turns, take a photo, start it up, no-flap landing, go around, single engine landing.

Some observations:
-Acceleration was pretty much as expected (the airplane is about 13k lb and the engines produce about 2800 horsepower, we fly these things at MUCH lighter weights than they did during the war), it is very brisk and you feel it… but an Extra is faster and an F-15E with -229 engines really kicks you in the pants… so it is relative... syncing the props took a lot of attention, and you really notice it...

-Roll with aileron boost it rolls nicely/ without it—wow… it actually feels like the B-25 in a lot of respects... and with the power/weight it handles a lot like an F4... for those who haven’t flown an F-4 you can really feel the weight, but you don’t have the inertia to fight like you do with a 727, or something like that… progressive, but you gotta make the input… as a comparison with an Extra you just think it… with an Eagle you just put it where you want… a Lightning you roll it, feel it, and stop it where you want. That being said the faster you go the better it feels in roll (of course that is WITH the aileron boost).

-Single engine was ok once I got everything setup... but the torque was amazing at slow speeds (I tried it a couple of seconds with power on one below 120... at altitude... just to see... a real eye opener... makes a believer out of you)... Keep your speed up and plan ahead… because this is not a light airplane and you don’t want to get into a crack where you need lots of power at slow speeds.

-Visibility was worse than I thought it was going to be... even sitting in the cockpit on the ground.... the canopy/window is right at my eye-height and I had to stretch or scrunch to see past it... the engine nacelles are big as well.... viz out the front is good... clearing six isn't too bad, except for the fact that my noggin hits the canopy easily... I think it would be a great offensive fighter, good viz over the nose and all that firepower right where you are looking... I'd hate to fight it defensively... it's hard to scan and I guess I've got a big head... it's hard to turn around and look behind frequently...

-Landing is fine... I found that it likes 1500' for a pattern altitude better than 1000'... just like a heavier fighter... You keep reducing speed throughout the approach (you start downwind at 150 mph, cross the fence at 100)… full flap requires a little more power to counteract the sink, half flaps makes the airplane fly a little nicer in the flare… rudder is effective for a little while after touchdown and then you’re back on the brakes, power.

-Takeoff is real fun with the props not matched in rpm… you run the engines up and stabilize them then release the brakes push it up to 45” and the rudder is not effective yet... which brings me to the brakes... you have to use differential braking to taxi… with a little help from the engines (which have a bit of lag in the low rpms)… You really have to pump those things to get 'em ready to use... more than any other brake system I've seen.... pump ‘em to get ready to taxi, taxiing, really pump ‘em for the engine runups, pump ‘em before landing so you know you’ll have brakes… pump ‘em easy during the landing roll out to take up the slack but not dart to one side…

There are some tricks and special things you have to do to keep the airplane happy, but it doesn’t appear to have any real coffin corners… be careful with the fuel and keep your speed up!

All in all it was a hoot... I loved it... when I was in TAC years ago we used to have a saying…. “It’s better to be lucky than good!.”

Comments, questions? I'll be happy to give hem a shot.


gunny

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:47 am 
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Cool narrative Scott, was almost like being there.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:57 am 
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Thanks for the insights into your experience, Scott. Very well written. May I humbly suggest you expand it a bit with more detail and submit it along with pics to Warbird Digest or similar publication? 8)

hsperdue wrote:
I shoulda been flying Mustangs with the 4th in the ETO<g>.


Sorry, heh heh, but I've already reserved that seat on the Time Machine! :lol:

Cheers!
Wade

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:02 am 
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Chicoartist wrote:
Thanks for the insights into your experience, Scott. Very well written. May I humbly suggest you expand it a bit with more detail and submit it along with pics to Warbird Digest or similar publication? 8)

hsperdue wrote:
I shoulda been flying Mustangs with the 4th in the ETO<g>.


Sorry, heh heh, but I've already reserved that seat on the Time Machine! :lol:

Cheers!
Wade


Wade-

Who's to say there isn't room for the both of us<g>... I've been a fan of the 4th for a whole bunch of years... and finally got to be stationed with the 334th... I really like your drawings of Kid Hofer and all the other 4th group fighters!

Actually, I did write a story for Tim... on Ruff Stuff... he didn't have any room for my checkout narrative. I think the article will be in the next issue.

gunny

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:55 am 
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Scott,
Thanks for taking the time to write here. Very interesting.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:24 pm 
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hsperdue wrote:
. . . I've been a fan of the 4th for a whole bunch of years ...


As long as we're getting on that time machine, I'd almost rather have been one of the mechs ... almost all of them were there from '42-'45, as they signed my ESCORT TO BERLIN book at 4FG reunions. No tour or duty, per se. They saw it all, and knew them all.

Oh, before we board that time machine, pls remind me to bring my Canon, and a sh*tload of batteries and CompactFlash cards! :lol:

Wade

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:53 pm 
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Does this one have the Dive Flaps on the bottom of the wing?
We put those on Stephen Grey's and Steve seemed to think they worked well. I robbed those from a carcass that sold at the Museum Of Flying auction. Last I saw of it Tom Rielly had it sitting in his hangar in FL.
I rode in the back of POF's behind Steve flying from CNO to PSP. Turbulence caused me to whack my chin on the top of the seat frame and hit my head on the canopy frame multiple times. Not a comfortable ride but a friend, MAJ, rode from Eden Prairie MN to CNO back there.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:12 pm 
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51fixer wrote:
Does this one have the Dive Flaps on the bottom of the wing?
We put those on Stephen Grey's and Steve seemed to think they worked well. I robbed those from a carcass that sold at the Museum Of Flying auction. Last I saw of it Tom Rielly had it sitting in his hangar in FL.
I rode in the back of POF's behind Steve flying from CNO to PSP. Turbulence caused me to whack my chin on the top of the seat frame and hit my head on the canopy frame multiple times. Not a comfortable ride but a friend, MAJ, rode from Eden Prairie MN to CNO back there.
Rich


Ruff Stuff doesn't have them yet, but soon will. When Erik Hokuf was here a few weeks ago I gave him a set that I had sitting here that came with a group of North American parts I bought.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:13 pm 
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Way Cool!

I always enjoy a first person account of a modern warbird flyer! It gives a certain perspective to the machines.

Thanks



( BTW ... I see your from funky town...so where do you keep the Lightning!?! )

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:16 pm 
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Ztex wrote:
Way Cool!

I always enjoy a first person account of a modern warbird flyer! It gives a certain perspective to the machines.

Thanks



( BTW ... I see your from funky town...so where do you keep the Lightning!?! )


The airplane lives in Granite Falls, MN. It is the only one flying with Turbos and given Tim's parts find will soon have Dive Flaps as well.

gunny

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:15 pm 
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Great stuff Gunny! Any chance you'll be flying Ruff Stuff at Oshkosh?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:27 pm 
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T33driver wrote:
Great stuff Gunny! Any chance you'll be flying Ruff Stuff at Oshkosh?


We plan on being there!

gunny

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:27 am 
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Cool narrative, thanks for that Gunny! :D

A few questions:

1) On initial takeoff, if you lose an engine, what do you base the decision on whether to continue the take off single engine or abort? Is it strictly airspeed like jets, or do other factors come into bearing?

2) If you do lose an engine on take-off, are you always able to climb out single engine? What conditions can you not? What kind of rate of climb can you get single-engine after take-off?

3) At pattern altitude, is there a certain speed, single engine, below which you cannot maintain level flight? What is that speed?

4) Is there ever a situation in a loss of engine on take-off, where you might have to reduce the power on the good engine, just to keep the airplane under control and still climb with a positive rate?

5) You talk about the P-38 having a lot of torque. I'm assuming you mean single-engine right? Doesn't the P-38 have counter rotating props? With two good engines, do you still notice the effects of torque despite the counter rotating props?

6) Can you always do a single-engine go-around in the P-38? Are there any situations where this is not possible? What are they?

As you can tell, I'm really interested in the single-engine performance of the P-38.

Thanks for taking the time to answer these. I have a few more questions, but I'll let you answer these first.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:54 am 
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warbird1 wrote:
Cool narrative, thanks for that Gunny! :D

A few questions:

1) On initial takeoff, if you lose an engine, what do you base the decision on whether to continue the take off single engine or abort? Is it strictly airspeed like jets, or do other factors come into bearing?

2) If you do lose an engine on take-off, are you always able to climb out single engine? What conditions can you not? What kind of rate of climb can you get single-engine after take-off?

3) At pattern altitude, is there a certain speed, single engine, below which you cannot maintain level flight? What is that speed?

4) Is there ever a situation in a loss of engine on take-off, where you might have to reduce the power on the good engine, just to keep the airplane under control and still climb with a positive rate?

5) You talk about the P-38 having a lot of torque. I'm assuming you mean single-engine right? Doesn't the P-38 have counter rotating props? With two good engines, do you still notice the effects of torque despite the counter rotating props?

6) Can you always do a single-engine go-around in the P-38? Are there any situations where this is not possible? What are they?

As you can tell, I'm really interested in the single-engine performance of the P-38.

Thanks for taking the time to answer these. I have a few more questions, but I'll let you answer these first.


1) Safety Speed is 120 MPH... if you have that and the gear coming up you continue... if not you abort. Today we call that speed Vmc... back then it was just Safety Speed.

2) Remember we fly these things at far lower weights than they did operationally. So, if you have 120 you can climb out... there aren't any published climb rates and when I did this in the airplane, I must confess I didn't spend much time looking at the VSI... but it wasn't fast.

3) Again 120 is the magic number... but as far as flying the pattern is concerned if you are configured the airplane will not maintain level flight... below 500' you don't have enough altitude to attempt a go around... with Full Flap you are committed to land... don't screw it up.

4) Yes. You aren't in good shape until the gear is up and you can get more than 120 MPH.

5) If you don't have the RPM matched then you are turning... on the ground or in the air... big engine, big prop... it's just physics, lot's of torque. The counter rotating props don't really make a SE situation that much better. As I remember the Piper Seminole has counter rotating props and you don't notice much difference in mis-matched RPM in that airplane.

6) See 3... if you are configured then the answer is no, that SE torque will roll you over in a heart beat.

I hope that helps.

gunny

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:49 am 
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Good info, Gunny. Thanks for posting!

Gary


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