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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:39 pm 
www.brisbanetimes.com.au/arti...s_rid=smh:top5

Diggers 'afraid to attack enemy'
Frank Walker | December 2, 2007

Australia's war veterans are furious at claims by noted English historian Sir Max Hastings that they were too scared to fight the Japanese in 1945.Hastings accused Australian soldiers of disobeying orders to attack, saying many soldiers were "embittered" and even on the edge of open mutiny.He said regular volunteer troops felt bitter towards those who did not volunteer to serve and scorned conscript militia sent to New Guinea and Bougainville.

"The last year of the war proved the most inglorious of Australia's history as a fighting nation," he writes in the new book Nemesis - The Battle For Japan 1944-45.Hastings appears to think not nearly enough Australians died fighting the Japanese.He seems to belittle the 7384 Australians killed fighting in the Pacific War, by noting that this was fewer than the number of prisoners captured in Malaya and Singapore who died, and only slightly more than the number of US Marines killed on Iwo Jima.

He writes: "It seemed perverse that, having won so much honour far away in the Mediterranean, Australia's share of the Pacific War ended in rancour and anticlimax."Hastings argues that Australian troops resented being sidelined by US commander Douglas MacArthur and being used only for irrelevant mop-up operations.He argues that Australians believed the only reason for the pointless invasion of Borneo in July 1945 was to keep them away from America's final victory over Japan."Some 229 Australians died and 634 were wounded," Hastings writes. "Once more it was impossible to believe anything worthwhile had been achieved and every man at Tarakan and Balikpapan knew it," Hastings writes.

Pacific War veterans reacted with fury yesterday.

The Reverend Roy Wotton, who buried 400 Australian troops during the Pacific War, was outraged."All those blokes died fighting the Japanese," the 94-year-old said. "How dare this Pom say they didn't fight. If they could talk today they would teach him a thing or two."Joe Madeley, president of the Rats of Tobruk Association, who also fought in Borneo, was disgusted."It is an insult to all the blokes who served in the Pacific," Mr Madeley said.

"I lost good mates there. Who is this Sir Max who sits in England writing this stuff? He should talk to the blokes who were there."RSL chief Bill Crews said Hastings's book was "offensive". "Veterans are maligned in this depiction of events in the Pacific," Mr Crews said."Australians did feel sidelined by the American command, but his claims about the fighting spirit and morale of the diggers is a sweeping assertion that we find quite offensive. There were many acts of extreme bravery and many diggers were exhausted after years of protecting Britain."
Australian War Memorial historian Dr Karl James said Hastings had overstated frustrations in the Australian army.

"There were some who were exhausted after years of fighting, but there was nothing like Hastings is suggesting. The veterans have reason to feel aggrieved."Hastings could not be reached for comment. A former editor in chief of London's The Daily Telegraph, he has written 20 books, mostly about World War II.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:52 pm 
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hrmmmm.

As I rule I find that those who brag the most about being stalwart and unafraid, and happy to be there are full o' poo and not to be depended on for a solid version of the past. The ones who admit they bitched and moaned and comlained that they were wasting their lives on stupid poo are the ones I believe.

I don't know this hastings. But I know if the Aussies got sidelined that every man, from the commander to the lowest dog, was going to complain taht what they were doing was a waste. Then they would go out and do it anyway, cause that's what you do.

Possibly a misread of Hastings, or possibly he's an idiot. I'd have to read it.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:13 am 
I believe he's used partial reference to the Morotai mutiny to flame this one but, which is never a good thing for a Historian to take an event out of context of the war and say "someone" wasn't as brave as he could be.

I feel its in extremely bad taste, and can't understand why it needed to be placed in print.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:10 am 
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Did Hastings write not brave enough to fight the Japanese, or did he just write "embittered?" There is a big difference. I know nothing about that "mutiny" but it it one thing to lack bravery in a necessary battle and another to oppose loss of hundreds of lives in a foolish or needless combat. There is not usually a lack of bravery in wars, for better or more often worse, the killing and dying goes on and on. It went on in our Civil War until a half million were dead, it went on year after year in Vietnam, behind two presidents that lacked both honor and honesty, it went on in the trench warfare in WWI.
And what exactly is a pom or a digger, not familiar terms here?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:32 pm 
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Very good point Bill. I suspect Hastings (a top military historian, BTW) was adding together a lot of public facts, including the resentments mentioned, and summarised the Australians were being awkward and demanding. There's no argument that there were serious issues with Aussie attitudes to doiung what were seen as peripheral and pointless jobs in the air and on the land and the actual quote the Brisvegas paper's geting the RSL* rent a moans to react to is both true enough (factually) and mild. The lack of a more exitable quote indicates there probably isn't one. However, that does not translate to cowardice or fear, but the very Australian demand to do only worthwhile jobs and have a day off after. Hastings will be coming from the British Army perspective, which has never squared with the much more egalitarian, informal and consensual (for a military formation) Australian Army. This is very simplified!

The Moratai Mutiny was discussed in the WIX Hangar, Bill. Have a look (again) I think you saw it before.

Bill Greenwood wrote:
And what exactly is a pom or a digger, not familiar terms here?

Tsk. I thought you knew better! ;) A 'Pom' is an Aussie term for a British person; about the same level of dispagament/affection as a Limey or a Yank. 'Diggers' is the colloquial term for Aussie solders - no one's sure where either come from, but there's enough tenuous theories around.

RSL is the Returned Serviceman's League. It's a semi-political conservative drinking and gambling club for Aussie old soldiers There seem to be more RSLs in Aussie towns that churches, and some of the behaviour is between religious and Masonic. West Front may provide a less cynical interpretation. :D

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:16 am 
JDK wrote:
RSL is the Returned Serviceman's League. It's a semi-political conservative drinking and gambling club for Aussie old soldiers There seem to be more RSLs in Aussie towns that churches, and some of the behaviour is between religious and Masonic. West Front may provide a less cynical interpretation. :D


lol no actually JDK I'll agree with you.

Lets not forget it was the WW1 and WW2 veterans that gave the Korean and Vietnam vets so much grief when they came back in the 1960's and 1970's. Modern RSL's sicken me, the greed and money grabbing, while vets sit in squalor in nursing homes.....

Consider this. The RSL officials are looking into the dress standards of particpants of my local Main city ANZAC day march. True. They have apparently found that since they opened up the march to relatives of military veterans that little kids, women etc, were dressing like they were going to the local shops, not paying tribute to the Veterans. I've seen it first hand my self, girls marching in the parade in high heels ?.

Re embitted vets: I think if I were a WW2 Australian 6th Division veteran who enlisted in Sept 1939, served in North Africa, Greece, Crete, back to North Africa, thehn shipped back to Australia. Thrown back into the SWPA and was still serving in 1945 in the boonies, I'd be less than enthusiastic about it all. My father often tells the story of the WW2 British Vet he worked with after the war that joined up fighting for " King and Country", and sick of it after 6mths and grumbled about if for the rest of his time !!.

Also consider that its a little known fact that RAAF servicemen serving in Bomber Command in Europe were sent white feathers as cowardice, ("Reaping the Whirlwind" documentry ABC TV) as some in Australia consider that Theatre a side show.

The "Real" war was on our doorstep in PNG and the islands.

I guess also JDK we should tell Bill about what a "Septic Tank" is in Australian rhyming slang ???!!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:12 am 
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Excellent points, West-front.

Having lived both in the UK and Australia, and spent time in several other countries, I'd not call any war a 'sideshow'. Like the joke about a Cub being an aircraft that's so safe it'll only just kill you, any war with casualties was real enough, and many of them faced other difficulties those not there don't appreciate.

Macarthur did some excellent work in setting Japan on its feet past-war and avoiding the Hitler effect, but otherwise I think he was a fundamentally flawed leader, and his treatment of his non-favourites and his obsession with Manila were inexcusable. Admiral King made mistakes, and was an anglo-phobe; but the RAAF high-command were worse, Blamey flawed, the RAN had a horrendous loss rate... Yet none of them were any worse than the average.

You tell Bill. I have no idea what that phrase might mean... :axe:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:44 am 
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'Digger' was coined circa 1917 by Australian troops fighting in Flanders [Belgium and then France].....

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:49 am 
Oscar Duck wrote:
'Digger' was coined circa 1917 by Australian troops fighting in Flanders [Belgium and then France].....


I've always preferred the reference to Sir Ian Hamiltons message to the troops at ANZAC Cove as being the reference point for the term "Digger"

www.awm.gov.au/dawn/plan/landing.asp

“There is nothing for it but to dig yourselves right in and stick it out.”

I believe the actual quote is:

“There is nothing for it but to dig, dig dig, until you are safe”

But for whatever reason the AWM have used the first quote....


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