Warbird Information Exchange

I realize money can be a real sticking point with people, but I am just curious, what is the real cost of owning a warbird?

Breaking it down what does it really look like? Initial purchase + Restoration + Maintaining + Fuel + insurance + anything else I cannot think of as I am new to this whole thing?

I understand that my family's financial history does not bode well for me ever owning a warbird in the middle class bracket we're in, but just out of curiosity what does it take?

I'd like to hear from as many people as possible, as knowing how much it takes for a Tiger Moth(okay, its a trainer. shoot me.) or Gloster Gladiator won't give me a good idea across the board.

You're forgetting one biggie -- insurance.

Okay, I see I forgot to put a biggie into my question, but answers would be appreciated... please include anything I forgot(there is probably lots that I unwittingly omitted)

Some say it depends a lot on how good your divorce attorney is.

Cost of ownership can be figured by allocating your costs to two areas, fixed and variable costs. Fixed costs are hanger, annual, insurance, and cost of funds.
Variable costs are ones that relate to how much you fly the aircraft and include fuel, oil changes, oil useage, engine overhaul, etc.
You also need to allocate reserves for Ad's, avionics, and unsceduled maintenance.
You can add up all of the costs at the end of the year to get an accurate total hourly cost or you can guess the number of hour you will fly and get a good guess before you start. From experience it will be generally 25% higher then your highest guess.

I think AOPA has better info on how to do this and I highly suggest joining.


If you figure a Tiger Moth guessing 75,000 range one cost to consider is the cost of funds.
1. You will either require a loan then the cost is the interest on the loan plu the lost interest on the downpayment.
2. If you pay cash then there is the cost of not having the funds paying interest if invested elsewhere.
Other factors need to be looked that will offset this hidden cost such as appreciation of the aircraft and depreciation of your dollar.

Now the good part. It is not uncommon to purchase an aircraft and fly it for several years and then sell it for so much more then you paid for it that every expense you ever paid is recovered. This requires some luck a lot of research an in depth look at an airplane before buying it.

My first aircraft was a Lance. I think we paid $38,000 flew it for 2 years and sold it for $48,000. Next a Duchess $47,000 sold it for $61,000 year and a half later. I bought a T-34 in 1987 for $149,000 and sold it for $245,000 in 1999. In all three cases all expenses where covered by the sale. A friend of mine just did the same thing with a BC-12 Taylorcraft. I rebuilt an Arrow and it appreciated $10,000 over what I thought t was worth while I was fixing it. This was great since it took that same amount more to rebuild then I had figured. Now it seems the value of an Arrow is down a little.

Unfortunately I doubt that the Tiger Moth will appreciate very much in the coming years, but I am not an expert by any means.
Also don't forget the cost of recovering and paint could easily be $30,000. Lifetime fabrics have been available for a long time but a few aircraft still haven't used the new cloth yet.

There can always be the unexpected costs and with aircraft it can be worse then you could imagine.
I have owned multiple aircraft for 20 years and the worst unexpected repair so far didn't exceed $5,000, probably lucky since the aircraft include a couple higher priced machines.

BR: Costs are also going to vary based on the rarety of the particular aircraft as well as the complexity. Something that is fairly common and not overly complex is going to be less expensive over the long haul. A quick number is between 5 and 10% of the acquisition cost, per year for maintenance and operational supplies, excluding fuel. Some years it may not be that high, but others may exceede it by large margins. Engine reserves are going to be a major part of these expenses. As to restoration costs, even just a cosmetic job, assuming that it doesn't require anything for saftey of flight, will set you back in the area of 10K, just stripping, painting and redoing the interior. Now, think about a cover job...10-15K minimum and then paint....The numbers grow exponetially as the size of the a/c grows.

Best bet to joining the ownership ranks is to find a civilian bird that was also flown by the military and finnish as a military bird. There are numerous models that can be done this way, with varying price levels. By going with a flying aircraft first, the enthusiasim stays high and the pocket isn't laid bare trying to get a project done and in the air quick enough to prevent matramonial discord.

Once you have a flyer, the pressure is minimal to find a project and there is no real time crunch to restore it to the levels that you will be happy with and at a cost level that you are comfortable with. It might take saving up for a few months so that you can buy the materials for the next phase of the project so that the SO isn't feeling like the project is sucking all the $ from the family.

Just some round numbers for you on my L-5B....

Acquisition cost: 4500$
Transport 1000$
Wood 2000?
Cover materials 1500?
Brake kit 1800?
Engine 10,000?
Paint 1000?
Other materials 2000?
Instruments
overhaul and
replacements 4500?
Radios 2500?

For a total of about 28K, and a couple of thousand of my labor hours to do all the work and she should be back in the air. If I wasn't having to fab new wings, the cost and time estimates would be lower.

Hope this helps some.....

I think Cavairwks is being overly optomistic on his covering costs. What ever you figure the most it can cost then double that and you might be close.

CV,
Your total comes to $30,800. If you actually get it done for that or less, I'd be surprised.

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Well since your questions aren't really being answered I will interject some of my quesses, then if I'm wrong maybe lots of folks will then correct it with the proper answers.

Firstly what kinda shape is the critter in? You may get a build it yourself project for cheap, any where from $50,000 to $120,000 for say something like a T-6 or T28. If the engine needs an overhaul that will set you back some where around $40,000 ish. And what ever the costs are for the finishing the project so say $20,000 for that. A good quick guess for cost of flight time in it, I'm thinking around $300 per hour this is for fuel, insurance, oil the basic things to keep it operational. I maybe way wrong, so lets hope the experts chime in.

I was just mentioning the Tiger Moth as an example of something that probably wouldn't give me the best idea of real warbird ownership, but thanks for all the responses about it anyway, I love those little trainers because of Roald Dahl(well, that and the Hawker Hurricane, but who doesn't love those?).

I think this topic is very close to home for me right now as well.
I've had an Aeronca L-16 and an SNJ (as you would guess, the smiles per dollar are higher on the L-16 )
I'll just add to what everyone else has said that there are some not so apparant costs - one example being the T-6 Wing AD. While NATA is addressing that it does serve to underline that the older the plane you get (unless totally rebuilt) there is more chance for metal fatigue and corrosion, so be careful as you look in addition to engine hours. I now look at the number ADs on a plane, number of hours on the airframe as well as the age.

Also, experimental a/c do not need an AI to do the annual, an A&P can sign off an owner assisted annual.

To me, if you go into selecting an airplane for what YOU really want to do, it's important. In my current case, I wanted a bit faster plane than the SNJ, and with more modern feel. I really do not care so much for formation flying. I enjoy medium length XC at a reasonable speed (180kts/200 mph). Looking at running costs, airframe hours, number of ADs, ease of parts and support, flying characteristics, fuel burn, type of flying you expect to do, etc., pick the plane you like. It may surprise you.
Then go fly it - it's worth an airplane ticket or two to go fly an example of your intended. It totally changed what I was looking for.

Good luck and have fun.

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Goes to show you how well I can add without pencil and paper at 3 in the morning and after snorting jet fuel for a while at work....I used question marks on the dollar figures due to them being wildly variable. I've usually been able to buy my materials in bulk for several projects at a time, or go in with other guys and keep the costs way down. We normally buy fabric in whole bolts, tapes by the case, chemicals by the 5 or 55 gallon drums and so on. Admittedly, I haven't priced supplies in a while, or for a single project, so they will be off some....Also, they are going to be process dependant too. Another thing that helps is that I have access to a Kearny tool and AeroQuip tools, so parts requiring those tools don't have to be farmed out. I've also been lucky in that we bought a huge pile of parts with a number of projects and have been able to pick good parts from the stockpile rather than have to rebuild everything.

One other item is labor. I'm a bit spoiled in that I have a couple of A&P's that I work with and an IA/DAR that does my inspections for minimal costs. If one doesn't have the tickets or has to pay current rates for the services, then that cost also has to be taken into account.

Of course, restoration costs are going to vary from aircraft to aircraft, based on condition and the skills and capabilities of the owner/restorer, and how much he/she elects to do themselves vs farming out work, and taking into account the project timeline. The faster you want it done, the higher the farmout costs are going to be. Something else to think about is tooling costs. With a good friends/EAA homebuilder network, you shoudn't need to go out and obtain every tool that is needed to do the restoration...unless you plan on doing more than one project in your lifetime. What you need in your shop is a whole 'nother thread and really needs to be treated as a subject by itself.

The best advice that I can give is to select a project and then research the restoration and operation costs prior to purchase. For a first time owner/restorer, it is definately going to be worth the time and dollars to go visit a similar project that is already flying and visit one that is in progress and then honestly evaluate your time available, your skills set and your determination to follow through on the project as well as the finances that are going to have to be committed. I've seen people and relationships get soured when they discover that the project has outgrown their capabilities or the available time or dollars and the frustration and disillusionment grows until the project is disposed of. I've also seen where a novice takes to the work and commitment like a duck to water and the project becomes the stepping stone to another bigger project and so on.

So BR, look and evaluate and formulate a plan, and between the memebers of the board, we can probably get you hooked up with someone that has restored whatever aircraft you decide you want to start with. That way, you can get very specific data as well as find out some of the typical problems and watch areas prior to parting with your hard earned dollars and hopefully have an enjoyable time.

Craig

Oh. I also forgot.....I don't want to scare you off BR...just help to give you a good picture of the expenses so that you can do a good evaluation and if you decide to do a restoration, you will be all fired up and not get frustrated. It's a great hobby that can be a big part of your family life if you choose to let it. You will learn skills that make you hunger to learn more and improve those that you already have. The day your first project successfully takes to the air and safely returns will rank right up there with the day you get married, the birth of your children...

Come, get involved. If you decide that a personal project is too much at this time, there are numerous museums that would welcome volunteer help. The bug has bitten you.....

I guess since I can just barely afford my house of 20 years, warbird ownership is outta the question!!!

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Looks like I'll be getting in touch with the Scotia air museum now!

Great to have such a place 20 minutes from home....