Warbird Information Exchange

the usaf punished 70 of it's service people after an investigation of how a b-52 flew across the country with nuclear weapons. the investigators found widespread disregard for rules & procedures in handling the ordinance. the flight occured on 8/29/07 & 8/30/07 with 6 nuclear tipped cruise missiles flown from minot afb in n. dakota to barksdale afb in louisiana with out anyone noticing. the missiles were supposed to go to barksdale, but the warheads were to be removed before hand. i'd say the air force moved pretty fast in it's investigation which is good, & restores some of my confidence.

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

and that's essentially what its all about.

Mistake? Who me? But hey, they sounded good on the radio!

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Nuclear weapons came through my home town on train cars, and no one ever cared. Why is this a big deal?

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Director

It's not so much the fact that the warheads flew...that used to happen all the time in the 50s and 60s with few real problems (and poses even less of a risk now, as current nukes are significantly safer than previous weapons).

The problem is that it happened and nobody knew about it until well after the fact. There are numerous layers of custody that actual warheads have to go through, and the fact that so many of those layers "assumed" that the ACMs had no warheads in them without, apparently, actually checking is very problematic.

Again, the fact that the weapons flew isn't problematic in and of itself -- it was a failure of the people in the system to do their job properly that was job-loss-worthy.

Ah, I see.

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Director

Just looking at it from the outside in without knowing much about the details, if I was setting up a system for security of nuclear weapons; I'd have those warheads painted a distinctive big N in a color like red or orange so it would be obvious which one you were using. The only reason I can think of not to do this would be if the AF wants to disguise what is being carried. If so perhaps they could store the nukes with a red or orange cover so the crews know what they are pulling out. And of coure there should be cross checks or double checks by more than one person along the chain. One set to pick up the bomb, a second set to check and sign off before loading. Perhaps a 3rd person to check on the walk around when on the plane. A double check system is how hospitals sometiemes handle drug dispensing. As for who gets punished, I recall a Bob Hoover story where once a young man misfueled his plane with jet fuel. Bob specifically asked that the same lineman handle his plane next time, on the theory that that guy would know and never make the mistake again. I wonder if the AF is mos re intrerested in placing blame since this got so much media coverage.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Bill, there ARE measures like this in place. Google "two man concept" or "two person concept" and you'll see what I mean. The measures you suggest are a pittance compared to what the actual procedures are...which are ridiculously over done to the extent of re-checking what has been previously re-checked and checked again....all with someone ELSE checking to makse sure they're doing it right. Think of what you wrote above, then multiply it by three or four and that's the type of redundant checks we're talking about all ready having been procedure for decades.

That's what makes this an appalling situation.

Yes, this investigation and the reprimands/firing is all about the USAF being able to tell congress, public, the media, etc, "See? We found out who was responsible and took care of the problem." Nothing else.

I assume there a double check procedures. How are they made? Do the nukes have any distinctive colors or markings? Do the checks rely on someone reading some part or serial number which is easy to miss? Did these people just neglect to even make the checks or did they make some error in the procedure. Human nature is that we become bored by repetition and can become careless and absent minded, especially in peacetime(at least in U S). I know I do a last check of my gear down light on short final, but after hundreds of landings, subconsciously really expected it to be ok. So at Geneseo when I glanced at it and expected to see green; it took me a moment to realize it was NOT there. Neither was the red up light, took me an extra moment to react. Turned out to be a broken switch.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

From what I understand there is also a small window on each device and all it takes is to look into the window to determine of it is a real device or a dummy. The real device would have a red (or orange can't remember) and a "N".

Can't comment on any specifics about nuclear procedures, unfortunately.



Bingo.

Air Force Procedures were not followed. Like Randy said, it is not the fact that they were flown, it was that each system the Air Force has, follows procedures to a "T".

Just like in any process the Air Force has, the specific handeling of items, especially Nuclear weapons, follow a check and balance system. If it is not followed, people are stripped of classifications and "fired" from duty and not allowed to perform those functions and pretty much blacklisted from doing it again.

Sounds like a lot of steps were not followed and therfor, they got in deep trouble for it.

The sad part about it is, the Wing Commander, who probably didn't even have anything to do with it, other than enforcing policies, got his a55 handed to him.

From what I read last night, the crews at both bases have had a very laid back attitude to the handing of the weapons and the aircraft when loaded. They had become so cavalier about it that they utilized a bunch of procedures that bypassed the approved ones. If, and we civilians will never know for sure, they were bypassing the required procedures willingly, then a bunch of years at Leavenworth would be a minimal punishment in my thoughts. Violating procedures with weapons, and in particular nukes, is an almost unforgivenable offense to me. I don't care wether command was aware or not, everyone involved needs some long prison time, and that includes everyone up the chain of command that allowed this to happen.

Some people may think I am over reacting or being overly harsh, but if these guys and gals, who are some of the most screened and regulated and observed in the military are that lazy, then there is an obvious prolem within those commands With the attitudes they have taken, how presuavive has it become in other section of those commands? As a civilian, I have to have absolute trust and confidence in those that serve, especially those that deal with the most fearsome and powerful weapons that man has developed to date. While I don't like to be overly harsh on those that make honest mistakes or inadvertantly cross the line, these people took it upon themselves to not only violate established procedures, but to recklessly endanger the flight crew and the citizens they are sworn to protect. From my point of reference, 10-20 years in the brig would be a good start, and that includes the officers too.

Well, to put it in perspective, firing the base commander is like firing a CEO for the mail room clerk who stoled a stapler.

NOW, if the Commander knew, which I am sure he probably did in this case, because he was fired, that those bypassed procedures were being conducted, then yes, he should be fired.

BUT, if his lower ranked on the base were doing this without his knowledge, then, no, it should be those below him canned.

Even when putting an engine together, you have a T.O. in front of you no matter how many freaking times you have taken it apart and put it back together and you know it inside and out. IF you do NOT follow the procedures put in place for safety reasons, then yup something is going to happen.

underlings are only as good as their bosses. a manager, ceo or officer who has a crappy staff of workers is a direct reflection of their leadership.

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!