Warbird Information Exchange

The choice I discussed was never to invade without use of the Bomb and risk large casualties; or to do nothing for a long period. It was rather that the US govt did not pursue peace negotiations very seriously berfore using the Bomb. US gave Japan a surender ultimatum, Potsdam; the Japanese rejected it; and TWELVE DAYS LATER the Atomic Bomb was dropped. (note I belive these dates are correct?) Was the issue of Peace not worth more than 12 days? In the Korean War we debated the shape of the meeting table for MONTHS without using a nuclear weapon aginst the North. The Bomb mission was underway even before the Potsdam ultimatum was given; and the 2nd Bomb mission was underway 48 hours after the first. I mught have liked to drop such a Bomb on the emperor or Japanese militarists, but it was used on civilain targets, instead. Since Japan had lost most offensive capability, a Peace process of a few months, BEFORE USING THE BOMB, would not have cahnged anything, only given that one more chance for Peace.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

My post is not really to say our govt. was stupid, certainly not to say our military was. However the thought accurred to me if one really wanted to give the idiotic govt award, it woudl have to go to the Nazis. Many of the men who worked on the Bomb were Jewish; thes guys were so smart that their mind was a weapon. Some like Einstien had even been in Germany or Austria, certainly Europe. It was Hitler's blind anti semitism that made these men work so hard against Germany on the Bomb, without this stupid policy Germany might have developed the Bomb first.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

And look how the North Koreans have suffered ever since! Of course that is our fault because of the embargoes, right? I'm not suggesting that we drop the bomb on them now however or that it would have been the right thing to do back then.

If you are put into the position of a CEO of a corporation and you make bad decisions, your employees suffer. Some get excessed, maybe the company goes into bankruptcy or even goes out of business and liquidates it assets. The wives and children of the employees also suffer. Some employees may even commit suicide if they are despondent. Certainly that wasn't the CEO's intent but nonetheless that CEO's actions led to the result. Same is true of world leaders. Some are good and some are bad. It is always the women and children that suffer in the end the most though. Hitler and the leadership of the Japanese (I think the emperor was more of a figurehead at that point) brought suffering upon their own people. We did not bring suffering upon them, they brought it upon themselves. I don't feel that I have any responsibility for their poor decisions. Both the Germans and the Japanese started over and became better from the experience. North Korea has not. You tell me which led to less suffering overall.

Does anyone have any data as to the civilian casualties from the major WW2 combatants?

According to wikipedia:

GERMANY:
Military Deaths: 5,533,000
Civilian Deaths: 1,810,000
% of population: 10.77%

JAPAN:
Military Deaths: 2,041,000
Civilian Deaths: 580,000
% of population: 3.67%

SOVIET UNION:
Military Deaths: 10,700,000
Civilian Deaths: 11,900,000
% of population: 13.44%

UNITED KINGDOM:
Military Deaths: 382,000
Civilian Deaths: 67,800
% of population: 0.94%

UNITED STATES:
Military Deaths: 407,300
Civilian Deaths: 11,200
% of population: 0.32%

This one really shocked me!!!
POLAND:
Military Deaths: 100,000
Civilain Deaths: 1,900,000
% of population: 18.51%

Well, I did not read all the posts but here is my two cents:

I am here today because of the bomb. My Grandfather marched out of the Chinese jungles with the 191st Combat Engineers to peace! He saw warehouses full of coffins and asked wht they were for as the war was over - and told that they were beinging readied for the invasion that thankfully never came.

A year ago we have a bomb survivor come to Wendover to see our full scale replica of the Little Boy. The Hiroshima times came as well and everyone went on and on about why did it have to happen. Well, my father point blank asked the survivor if he had been ready to surrender at that point so many years ago. the answer? "NO - I would have fought to the death for the Emperor" AND HE WAS THERE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE BOMB?? Well, it turns out that he really was just there to see what had destoryedthe city and the newspaper had somewhat dragged him along as a survivor.

No disrespect meant to anyone individually - but thank heaven for the bomb - it saved generations of Americans and Japanese.

Tom P.
Historic Wendover Airfield Museum

Bill-
Twelve days was a helluva lot more notice than the Japanese gave the victims of Pearl Harbor, China, Korea, the Philippines, etc, etc. Why do you want to give them special consideration? After all, they're the ones who started the war, right?

-Pat Brown

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Trust me, I know what I'm doing.

Japan's emperor was a figurehead; the generals and admirals were running the country. They had twisted the national religion (Shinto, in which the emperor is a god) around to the point where citizens were eager to give their lives for the emperor - the kamikaze pilots were volunteers.

Regarding Korea - I once asked a B-36 vet why they weren't used in Korea. He gave me a look and said, "Because that would have started a nuclear war with China, of course!"

The Japanese never seemed to have that "Give Peace a Chance" attitude when dealing with the countries they invaded or attacked.

Regards,
Mike

Japan was known for centuries as a warrior nation, the Samurai a symbol of the ultimate warrior was as looked up to as the Gladiators of Roman times. Experts in hand to hand combat they set the standards for Japans new military might being developed during the 1930's. The Japanese took great pride in their history of fighting to the death, it was most honorable to die for the Emperor. Would this mentality have remained in the hearts of the Japanese after defeat if the bomb hadn't been used? Would they have been as cooperative to lay down their weapons if it werent for the promised rain of ruin that Harry Truman sent to the Japanese leaders?I think the atomic bomb brought a whole new psychological aspect to modern warfair, total destruction. Good bad or ugly the development of atomic weapons has kept the possibility of global warfair unthinkable. As for Japan it has become one of the most peaceful nations on the planet, was that a result of lesson learned? Japan has raised up from the ashes to become a leader in technology,and a economically strong nation without being a threat to the rest of the world.Should the rest of the world look at Japan as a leader in world peace? Could the Moslem fanatics of today learn from Japans past? Not likely.

Thanks Mike

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IF YOU CAN FIND IT WE CAN FIX IT

Can we inject a little sanity and common sense into this volitile thread?

1. Aternate history consideration is not generally productive beyond the
statement, "it could have gone like this... the fact is it didn't and
discussing it decends into "coulda ,shoulda" real fast but still dosen't
add anything.

2. Greatful people because without the bomb they wouldn't be here???
If you han't been born, how would you know if you should be greatful
or not???

3. Historical discussion can ONLY deal with events that actually took place or planned events that didn't, but for the latter, see #1.

4. thought provoking questions usually come from actually thinking about possible/actual ramifications of the event, using offered facts and opinions factored intto formation of said questions.

So why is it that no one has questioned the assumption that the US HAD to use the bomb or invade???

no flame intended. my apologies if it is taken that way.

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Charles Neely

We were not the only nation trying to develop atomic weapons. If we had not used it, someone, somewhere would have by now. The fact that we used it undoubtedly led to the mutual fear of using it.

Steve G

The reason I ask why the either/or re: invation of the Japanese home islands that's the way it's always couched. The bomb was dropped so they wouldn't HAVE to invade. On its surface a simple and convincing concept.

However, why couldn't the home islands simply been blockaided? The US Navy of 1945 couldn't do it??? The airforce could not have continued attacking from above? There are many different scenarios that COULD have saved untold lives. But it appears that we, and our father's generation are bennefitting(?) from and still dealing with a great deal of spin.

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Charles Neely

I will defer to Bob Caron, tail gunner on the Enola Gay who said (if I am not mistaken) that there was a monster loose, and it's name was WAR, it was killing women, men and children on all sides - no one was exempt from its effects. The Americans found a way to stop that monster in its tracks and we used that weapon.

As far as being grateful, you better bet I am grateful! Grateful that because in our history there were brave men and women who died so I could worship as I please, work where I please and fly with whom I please.

I am well aware that this topic is one that there are very few who don't have strong feelings one way or the other so at this point I will let it drop.

Tom P.

Charles Neely, What is WIX coming to? You are at least the 3rd guy who is suggesting folks actually think a bit, and not just accept blindly the party line. Man, that is a frightening and revolutionary concept to a lot of folks, and I sure welcome it. We in America learn in school about Thomas Jeffeerson or Sam Adams, etc. and freedom of speech and freedom of press; but for a lot of people it seems to be something you check off on a 6 grade civics test and then put it out of your mind and out of your life. It's great for people who agree with you, but you don't really mean it should apply to those other guys also? The most foreign concept of all is the basic one,freedoom to actually think, AND to grant the other guy the same right. Maybe, just maybe the scariest concept of all, actually listening to another veiwpoint, and considering it and maybe learning from it. I am sure like most others I could improve my listening also.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK