Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:33 am
No they weren't. Air Force Magazine has pictures of Mig 27s vs. F-15. I am telling the truth. Mig 29s were involved as well, but Mig 27 fought F-15Cs and won.
Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:44 pm
You're all seriously taking the information out of context. No, MiG-27s did not smoke F-15Cs in 1 v 1 combat. They don't even have a radar to shoot radar-guided missiles with.
These were large force exercises...not 1 v 1 or even 2 v 2. The Indians were using Su-30s (better version of the Su-27) as their offensive counter air, escorting MiG-27s as "strikers" -- ergo, bomb droppers. The US F-15Cs were playing the "red air" aggressor role. The F-15Cs played by severely restricted rules, both in terms of tactics and capabilities. There are *no* conclusions about US capabilities that you can draw based on their performance with "handcuffs" on. You have to understand that there is a difference between what actually happened, what it means to the USAF pilots in terms of tactics, and what it means to the USAF leadership.
What actually happened: The Indian AF kicked the crap out of the US F-15Cs, which were operating under significant restrictions to their capabilities and tactics (and do not represent anywhere near the full extent of actual US tactics and capabilities).
What it means to US Pilots: We're surprised at the capabilities and tactics of the Indian AF. They have a well thought out gameplan and an ability to adapt to changing scenarios. The Indian AF has not historically been held in too high a regard, so their performance during this exercise was surprising.
What it means to the USAF leadership: A wake-up call to show that the US no longer holds a gigantic advantage over our potential adversaries. They are using the situation to bolster their argument for full acquisition of the F/A-22. This is *not* because the F-15C is no longer adequate, but because the F-15C is no longer clearly superior to other airframes like the FLANKER.
These were large force exercises...not 1 v 1 or even 2 v 2. The Indians were using Su-30s (better version of the Su-27) as their offensive counter air, escorting MiG-27s as "strikers" -- ergo, bomb droppers. The US F-15Cs were playing the "red air" aggressor role. The F-15Cs played by severely restricted rules, both in terms of tactics and capabilities. There are *no* conclusions about US capabilities that you can draw based on their performance with "handcuffs" on. You have to understand that there is a difference between what actually happened, what it means to the USAF pilots in terms of tactics, and what it means to the USAF leadership.
What actually happened: The Indian AF kicked the crap out of the US F-15Cs, which were operating under significant restrictions to their capabilities and tactics (and do not represent anywhere near the full extent of actual US tactics and capabilities).
What it means to US Pilots: We're surprised at the capabilities and tactics of the Indian AF. They have a well thought out gameplan and an ability to adapt to changing scenarios. The Indian AF has not historically been held in too high a regard, so their performance during this exercise was surprising.
What it means to the USAF leadership: A wake-up call to show that the US no longer holds a gigantic advantage over our potential adversaries. They are using the situation to bolster their argument for full acquisition of the F/A-22. This is *not* because the F-15C is no longer adequate, but because the F-15C is no longer clearly superior to other airframes like the FLANKER.
Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:55 pm
Ok, I stand corrected.
Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:59 pm
Did the F-15 have tanks on?
That really hurts them from I've been told. In fact our FA-18 pilots said that was the only way they could stand a chance against them. Our XO at the time would talk to us about the different games they played. Seemed a bit funny when an officer is willing to say that they all where dead.
But remember the P-40, F4F... all out classed to the A6Ms. But Armor and a will to win makes a big difference
That really hurts them from I've been told. In fact our FA-18 pilots said that was the only way they could stand a chance against them. Our XO at the time would talk to us about the different games they played. Seemed a bit funny when an officer is willing to say that they all where dead.
But remember the P-40, F4F... all out classed to the A6Ms. But Armor and a will to win makes a big difference
Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:03 am
Sorry to recycle this thread at this last moment. But since people were interested in pics, there are some high res pics of the exercises here on my IAF website
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... index.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... index.html
Randy is right. There were strike packages - MiG27s and MiG21 Bisons escorted by Sukhoi 30 Ks. It was the Sukhois which were engaging in Air to air almost all the time. I have no idea if the MiG21 Bisons were involved in Air to air.
The USAF flew under restrictions. and the IAF held back their Sukhoi 30 MKIs which are the more potent versions out of the exercise.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... index.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... index.html
Randy is right. There were strike packages - MiG27s and MiG21 Bisons escorted by Sukhoi 30 Ks. It was the Sukhois which were engaging in Air to air almost all the time. I have no idea if the MiG21 Bisons were involved in Air to air.
The USAF flew under restrictions. and the IAF held back their Sukhoi 30 MKIs which are the more potent versions out of the exercise.
migs beat f-15's
Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:40 pm
let's face it the venerable f-15 is dated technology, as well as the f-14, i read where the f-14's are already in the phase out stage. both planes have been war horses for decades with stellar combat histories, us taxpayers definetely got our money's worth!! f-16 is the most versatile of the bunch & will soldier on for quite some time. the f-18 is the baby brother & will be kept for a while still because of late acceptance to the military after numerous bug problems early on. it's a butt kicker now!! let's talk longevity!!! b-52 stratofortress is 57 years old!! talk about grandaddy!!! we definetley got our bang for the buck on that weapon system!!
Sun Jan 09, 2005 8:04 pm
It sounded like it was pretty close. Apparently both combatants had restrictions put on them, and well it maybe time to employ the F-22. Maybe it would do to improve the long range weapons system in the F-15, and avoid a dogfight altogether.