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Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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 Post subject: just an idea
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:23 am 
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Gary could you not try and make the parts seperately insteadof bending them and then either weld or solder them together to save bending?

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 Post subject: Re: just an idea
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:36 am 
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peter wrote:
Gary could you not try and make the parts seperately insteadof bending them and then either weld or solder them together to save bending?


Good question, Peter. Certainly the easiest way to do it would be to just make square corners, vs. the round ones. However, I know me, and I know that I would never be satisfied with that. I know it sounds crazy, but I'm not going to let this beat me. I've had folks in the past (particularly women) tell me that I can, on occasion, sometimes be just a tiny bit hard-headed. :lol:

I really don't think that this is going to be much more of an issue and that I'll get it worked out. However, if I continue to fail, I imagine that I'll go with square corners and either rivet or weld them together. Thanks for the suggestion. :)

Gary


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:42 am 
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I think we've all been there when the instruction book says. "Lightly bend the Fitzer piece until the tab aligns with slot b. Two pieces are supplied in case of error."

After you busted your two pieces, your mate's two pieces and the local Fitzer supply stores' entire supply, you wonder why the manual forgot to mention all the failures they must have had.

It might not have been a great day for you, Gary, but it gives hope to the rest of us who only bend metal when reversing a bit far... One day, I too will fill a trash-can just like my hero. Restoring the warbird will be the day after's job. :D

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:13 am 
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Can you just weld up the cracks?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:59 pm 
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Sasnak wrote:
retroaviation wrote:
I think I forgot to mention before that I was able to borrow a waist gunner's door (one that I was supposed to get from Ed Kaletta :x ), from the SanDiego Air& Space Museum. I'm going to just have to use this one as a pattern to make my own. But first, I needed to cut the hole for it in the fuselage plug that Consolidated put in the airplane to cover up the original waist gunner's position during it's first reconfiguration.......

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Gary


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Gary,

You mentioned (at one point) that you and the San Diego Air & Space Museum couldn't come to terms on a "reasonable" price to simply purchase the waist gunner's door(s) from them. I don't doubt that the price was HIGH. But in light of the frustrations you are experiencing, may I ask how much they were wanting for the doors?

Perhaps too late to do this, but what if another arrangement could be made to raise the money needed to simply purchase the doors. Afterall, the machine guns were purchased by WIX contributions. This seems like another worthy charity in an effort to restore Ol' 927 back to here original glory.

Just a thought.



Just say the word and it will come.... :wink:

Lynn


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:50 pm 
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Django(Chad)...No, I can't weld up heat treated aluminum. Too hard and it will just crack right out. I'll just move to plan B tomorrow.

Sasnak & Lynn...Well, that is a great idea, but like I mentioned in that last post, it looks like we were lucky that we couldn't strike a deal on those doors, as the contour is wrong for our airplane anyway. The "A" model B-24s had the waistgunner's positions about 8" or so higher than any of the other models built (or so it seems). The contour of the fuselage is much rounder up there and the door I built does appear to have more curve in it than the original door we're borrowing. I did put the original door up to our fuselage, and it indeed would not fit in the hole.

Thanks for the offer though. That's a seriously cool gesture!

Gary


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:31 pm 
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Gary,
Your fabrication pictures are fantastic. It's great to see the process and all the pieces come together. I think my jet work is soo much easier than what you're doing. Keep up the great work.
David


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:39 pm 
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It's amazing the amount of work (and money) that go into warbirds these days to keep them flying. Am I right in thinking that that original door interior was probably stamped out of one piece, which took maybe a few seconds?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:38 am 
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Cripes wrote:
Am I right in thinking that that original door interior was probably stamped out of one piece, which took maybe a few seconds?


Yup. However, it took a gargantuan machine to do that sort of stamping with....

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Gary


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:00 am 
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Wow! It makes you wonder what happened to all of that old tooling. That massive beast belongs in its own museum. :shock:

I remember hearing that LTV still had some of the obsolete tooling machines for the F4U pushed away in some remote corner of the factory somewhere. Never was able to find anyone to confirm the rumors though. How great would it be to pull back some dusty tarp and find the tooling for that main wing spar. ;)

Just wanted to "re-up" and thank you Gary for continuing to take the extra time to assemble these illustrated reports. The exhaustive amount of work that's gone into this single aircraft continues to absolutely amaze me. 8)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:10 am 
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What series of aluminum are you using? I think I would use 3000 series O and make inner part and the outer part seperatly. Make the form blocks hammer them out and weld the inner and outer together..

I have used a 2 part blue stuff we would mix up and poor into the part and it and it would form up hard. you pop the original part off and now you have a die. you could then use it in a hydoform


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:09 am 
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Well, I don't have the time for any of the fancy stuff anymore. I've just got to hammer out parts. I have, however, gotten past the stumbling blocks I was experiencing the other day and have already made good forward progress, just in about an hour's time. I'll have y'all an update later.

Thanks for the tips though. :)

Gary


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:25 am 
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Im sure some of those old machines are still lying somewhere in a junkyard. Or, perhaps its still being used. Lots of car and bike guys like using old aircraft factory machines.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:34 pm 
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Well, I reckon it's about time I give y'all the update from this past weekend's work. I really have no excuse for being so tardy with this update, other than I just haven't taken the time to do it, until now.

The first thing that should be mentioned is that I've just been pretty much useless to the project lately. I can't seem to find much motivation and just cannot get back into the swing of things. Thank goodness for volunteers like Scott and Ellen Hochstein. They have repeatedly come down to Midland, from Tulsa, for numerous weekends of work, at a huge expense to themselves. They never complain about job assignments given to them (at least not to me :) ) and work from "can 'til can't" the entire time they're here. Scott was in a rather grumpy mood this past weekend, due to a comment I made, not realizing that I'd said it with any acidity. However, he still kept on working and made major headway with our project by finishing the installation of the passenger's seats in the forward bomb bay. I appreciate him for not allowing anything stupid that came out of my mouth to get in the way of the importance of getting this airplane finished.

I don't think that anyone that's been part of this project likes the fact that we have to put additional seating in the airplane that wasn't originally there to begin with, but we also understand that we must do it this way in order to get the airplane finished and out on tour. The installation of these seats was no easy task. This poor old airplane has had so many modifications done to it over the years, that one is forced to fabricate new structure in order to install anything new. Scott wasn't a big fan of this particular job assignment, but did a great job in getting it accomplished in a very short amount of time.........

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While the seats were being installed, I was back to working on my waistgunner's door. I purchased some aluminum angle that was thicker than the metal used in my first attempts at the inner frame work that kept cracking when trying to shrink it to make the sharp corners. However, before I started using this stuff, I tried a sample piece and "over bent" it intentionally to check for any problems. It worked well.......

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So, the next step was the same as working with the other pieces. Lay it down and make the index marks........

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Then, start shrinking.......

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One thing I don't think I pointed out in the previous update about making angles such as these is how I determine where to shrink next. If you look at this picture, you will see where the angle is starting not match the angle of the window cut out. My finger is pointing to the area that will be shrunk next. The shrinking will start just ahead of where the distance starts to increase between the angle and the window cut out. Make sense? :oops: .........

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Not quite there.........

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Okay. That's more like it...........

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So the next step I took was to polish out the shrinker marks.......

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Once I was done with the polishing part, I went ahead and marked where the angle sat on the skin. This would make it easier for me to match up the next angle, without having to deal with the other angle being in the way........

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After that, I just bent up the second angle and then marked where it overlapped the first piece, and trimmed it to fit.........

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Now that the first two angles were made, I needed to locate the holes which will later be used to attach it to the outer skin. I started with using some existing holes in the skin, followed by adding additional ones.......

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One thing I ran across is that the contour of the door made it to where the new angles didn't lay down real nicely on one end.........

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So, even though you really can't tell much difference in this picture, I took the angle over to the shrinker and shrunk the vertical portion of it to somewhat match the contour of the outer skin..........

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Now, you may have noticed that the angles I'm using are not the 2" high, like the other ones I made in the first attempt at this. That is not a problem, as I'll just simply attach some 2" strips of aluminum to these first angles, and then fabricate a second set of angles on top to complete the structure I need. The addition of these 2" strips was pretty straight forward, with the exception of dealing with that slight contour in the center of the door. That was no problem to counter, however, since I just cut the long strips into shorter strips and it all eventually meshed up........

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The next step in this process was to make the second set of angles that will go inside the aluminum strips. Once riveted together, these will complete the fabrication of the window frame.........

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Now, Ol' 927 has a way of telling you that you're starting to get over-confident and wants to make sure you know that you're not taking control of what's going on without a fight. As you can see in this picture, I was obviously not thinking clearly and shrunk the angle waaay ahead of where it should've been, which meant that it wasn't going to fit........

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I tried to fix it with usting the stretcher to "undo" the errant shrinking, but..............

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So, no big deal. I'll just add another piece to this second set of angles (didn't have enough material to make another complete piece)........

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And once all of the pieces were cut and trimmed to length, this is what we now have..........

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I still need to locate the holes for the upper set of angles and then rivet them all together, but that should go rather quickly. I won't be doing much else to the airplane for the next week or so, since I have a formation clinic I'm participating in this weekend and will be heading for Reno next week for the Pylon Racing Seminar (rookie school). Thankfully, Daniel Collier has returned for a couple of weeks, so he'll definitely keep the ball rolling in my absence.

Gary


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:47 pm 
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Thanks Gary,

Replies always welcomed and appreciated!


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