Mass shooting today on campus... I feel sick

[Nathan]

Over 200 years this country has been running and even still today we still need to work out issues.

Actually there was one action taken by two students. After the man shot people in one room and left, two guys blocked the door shut with their legs in case he came back. Well, the shooter did come back but could not get in the door since it was blocked. He shot threw the door several times but the two studants were able to keep it closed. Atlest there was SOME defense during that day. But I agree, they were all scared kids and didn't know how to handle the situation.

Maybe teachers should carry a weapon?

-Nathan

[Lynn Allen]

When you go through your concealed handgun training, you’re taught, at least we were, that you have to understand when to use justifiable leathful force. Your are taught that to have a concealed weapon is to stop, not kill the force, unless it is going to kill you or your family. You have to know that you will be responsible for your actions. We were told that during the shooting section of the training that anyone who made headshot were disqualified, no questions.

I'm old enough to remember the vietnam war and seeing the daily report on the people who were killed or wounded. My chief pilot was wounded twice over there, being he was in the Special Forces, he was in the big middle. We don't do enough to thank the people over there now...

I will.......Thank you

Lynn

[Nathan]

Same here. Thank you troops, soldiers, airmen for your service and sacrifice. And thank you to their families to have to live their lives so long without their family members.

[Ztex]

A sad sad day. I pray for those lost, who have lost and those injured. Senseless..

It was na Eagle Scout that blocked the door and tended the wounded.


A nut bag destroys a bunch of lives and you blame the gun?

Guns Kill.... ?

Watch this one and see if it jumps up and kills anything...
http://assaultweaponwatch.com/

BTW it is an evil AR-15 like the one blamed for the killings in Australia...so hows that gun crime rate in Sidney since they banned guns?...humm yeah that's what I thought.

[Mark_Pilkington]

Guns Kill.... ?

Watch this one and see if it jumps up and kills anything...
http://assaultweaponwatch.com/

BTW it is an evil AR-15 like the one blamed for the killings in Australia...so hows that gun crime rate in Sidney since they banned guns?...humm yeah that's what I thought.

I support freedom of speech and the US citizens right to bear arms if thats what your society chooses to do, and I dont wish to add to, or maintain a debate on gun control but I do feel obliged to correct mis-information regarding the outcomes of guncontrol here in Australia.

The easy availability of guns in society increases the deaths due to guns in domestic, criminal and accidental situations.
- the evidence is sitting in this thread - end of story

Gun Control is an issue for the citizens of the US to resolve, but please dont mis-represent the situation here in Australia, our deaths due to guns have HALVED since the removal of semi-automatics, the tighter requirements on gun ownership, storage and licencing (we have never legalised hand guns or allowed the Carrying Concielled Weapons, guns, machets, knives or swords) - There has been NO appreciable change in the level of crime in Australia following these new gun laws either, our police forces remain armed.
-end of story.

Our gun laws were not introduced by a "Socialist Government" the current Liberal Howard Government is a Conservative Government with close ties to the Republican administration of George Bush, it lead Australia into Afganistan and Iraq as part of the Coalition of the Willing.

Legitimate use of Guns, shooting ranges, hunters, farmers , security guards, even collectors still have access to them, but hords of high powered/semi automatic guns left under peoples beds, with the boxes of ammunition, for a drunken husband, children or thief to access have been removed from our population and forced to be securely locked up

The volume of school shootings in the US - Columbine etc and this most recent tragedy are not repeated at this level anywhere else in the Western World, neither are the per-head of population shooting deaths. - end of story

If you choose to retain guns and easy access that is a decision that needs to be conciously made, but please dont twist the facts, or use bland statements like "I havent seen my gun shoot by itself" to support your argument, these are just symantics, and in very poor taste in the aftermath of this massacre

This is a huge societal problem that needs to be faced and addressed, with honest and open soul searching?

This board isnt the place to resolve or debate gun laws, but please dont quote such totally wrong and misleading "statistics" from our Australian experiences.

regards

Mark Pilkington

[Rhinelander]

There has been no apprecitable increase reported in Australia, because like the UK they changed how they report the incidents.

They should demand the professors carry guns. That would put a end to this BS overnight.

While we are at it, they should demand airline pilots carry them as well.

[mustangdriver]

A lot of airline pilots do carry them.

[Mark_Pilkington]

Rhinelander Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There has been no apprecitable increase reported in Australia, because like the UK they changed how they report the incidents.

At the risk of repeating myself: "but please dont mis-represent the situation here in Australia, our deaths due to guns have HALVED since the removal of semi-automatics, the tighter requirements on gun ownership, storage and licencing (we have never legalised hand guns or allowed the Carrying Concielled Weapons, guns, machets, knives or swords) - There has been NO appreciable change in the level of crime in Australia following these new gun laws either, our police forces remain armed"

There is NO change in how we report shootings, they have physically reduced, where does such "crap" come from?

Gun deaths halved in past 10 years - By Shane Wright January 3, 2004



Dont cloud the issue with such mis-information make informed decisions or debate on real facts.

What has happened is a tragedy, if your solution is to arm everyone in the class, or have a "Class Marshall" or armed Proffessor thats fine, debate that logically within your community, state or nation, even here etc, but not with mis-information to support it.

I dont intend to reply to any further "Gun-Control" posts, other than to say while a gun by itself doesnt kill, a gunman without a gun cannot be a gunman, and yes perhaps such looney's will find other means to kill, but perhaps not as efficiently and successful to take out 30 people at a time?


There will always be illegal guns in society, like speeding cars, drink drivers, and drugs, but that is not a reason to not explore solutions to minimise their existance and the damage they cause.

Giving up "some" degree of individual "freedom" is part of participating in a civilised community in any case, obeying the law, paying taxes, giving your life for your country etc

Guns for legitimate purposes can be secured and controlled to restrict the easy access and use by hot heads etc, and can reduce the gun related deaths, it HAS happened successfully in Australia, with a significant reduction in gun deaths "without fiddling the reports", or an increase in other crime.

I am not anti-guns, in fact I was a licenced shooter, with 3 registered high powered ex-military guns prior to the introduction of the new gun laws and chose to support these changes proposed by our Government.

I have since taken the oldest three of my sons to firing ranges to introduce them to firearms and shooting in a proffessional and safe environment.

I suffered an armed robbery and had no desire during that to be armed and "have a shoot out" over the $20 it cost me and the others present. the "crim" was caught and in the police station before I got there for my statement. I therefore wouldnt support in Australia the strategy of arming of everyone or "teachers" to deal with a crazed gunman, or criminals.

Of course I realise as the number of illegal guns in the US (and legitimate guns) is so much higher that the concern is in leaving yourselves un-protected against those that are already carrying guns, which is a totally different situation to that we have always faced here in Australia.

I dont know how you can wind back from that situation, but dramatically reducing the ability to acquire a gun over the counter, particularly high powered semi-automatic or fully automatic guns, and having them locked up in secure gun safes with ammunition stored elsewhere under responsible gun owenership rather than allowing access to one from home simply from a cupboard, draw, under the bed, or the back window of the pickup? in a fit of anger, or drunken or drugged condition, or simply by inquisitive kids "playing" would reduce the level of deaths rather than increase them??

It is a complex issue, it needs serious thought and debate, not mis-information or emotional grand standing, it needs a solution? of some sort.

The issues of guns and gun deaths in the US is one for its citizens to deal with, in a mature, informed and rational debate, I will leave that to happen elsewhere.

I think its approaching the time for us all to leave this "gun" topic where it sits, or reduce further posts to simply statements of sympathy for the dead, injured and those who have lost loved ones in this tragedy? and get back to common interests of warbirds.

Perhaps Scott should consider locking this thread and dragging a copy over to the off-topic page for those who wish to continue, however I have simply wanted to explain our true experiences and situation here in Australia as against the repeated mis-information that has been posted here, and will not continue the debate in this thread or on the off-topics page.

Again my deepest sympathy to those touched by this tragedy.


Regards

Mark Pilkington

[bdk]

-end of story.

Thank you for telling us that you have the final word.

The UK traditionally had a lower murder rate than the US before gun control gained popularity over there in the 1950s. Gun murder rates and other gun crimes have risen in the UK since gun controls were enacted. Gun crimes have been reducing in the US since the 1960s.

Fun with statistics (and not ones I made up):

Firearm murders per capita:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita

Police per capita (US doesn't even make the list!):

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pol_percap-crime-police-per-capita

Australia is numbr 3 in rapes, number 1 in burglaries, and number 1 in car thefts per capita (one in every three Australians is a victim of crime), while the UK is number 8 in robberies as well as number 6 in total crimes per capita, all ahead of the crime ridden US...

The rate of "gun death" is higher in America because SUICIDES are always included in the total figures. Once again, we have the typical numbers-twisting that gun-control supporters love to use.

The US has a comparatively low suicide rate, far lower than countries with strict gun control. The clear conclusion is that if people want to kill themselves, they will use whatever is handy. If there are no guns, they will find alternative means.

It is also interesting to note that since England adopted strict gun control (ostensibly to reduce the amount of guns criminals could have access to) gun crimes have surged. They are fast becoming the weapon of choice and the bobbies, long armed only with a nightstick and a funny hat, are being forced to carry guns themselves.

How do our "common sense" gun control proponents explain this? How can banning guns make them more common IN AN ISLAND NATION? Surely here should be a text-book case of gun control success. Yet England's violent crime rate has already passed that of the US and its murder rate continues to climb. The US murder rate, by contrast, remains in a 30-year decline.

[Raven]

With respect, bdk, I suggested that this thread should not be used for the same old polarised argument regarding gun control. It's clear that the gun advocates won't change their views any more than those who don't like the gun issue. It's a pointless argument here - no one's going to convince anyone else to change their views.

I'm very disappointed with the posters who've been keener to discuss gun control before taking a moment to acknowledge the untimely murders.

I appreciate your efforts to promote your view with rational argument and statistics. However, phrases like 'before gun control gained popularity' can only come from a pro-gun point of view; the UK like Australia, has never had a pro-gun culture, or heavy gun useage. There are interesting case studies such as the explosion in Maori deaths and the gun control in New Zealand during the Maori Wars era, for those that are interested and with an open mind on the matter. Australia, New Zealand and Canada, like the US had a frontier era in their history, yet only the US has held onto 'the right to bear arms' which is a historical footnote to defend against Indians and the British - new roles for old rules.

It is notable that the statistics quoted place stable democracies with low gun ownership (legal and illegal) and low gang and organised crime levels as 'worse' than those without. (Denmark, New Zealand, et al) The obvious reason is (a) having lots of guns prevents crime or (b) reported crime is higher in countries with an effective (and trusted) law enforcement.

There's a lot to be said in that debate - however it's clear that no debate, just polarised views can happen here. You aren't going to convince the anti-gun lobby, and they aren't going to convince you, and this is no place for that argument.

This thread, originally a memoriam for a shocking massacre, should be locked, IMHO.

[Ztex]

I found this stuff...

Since Australia banned private ownership of most guns in 1996, crime has risen dramatically on that continent, prompting critics of U.S. gun control efforts to issue new warnings of what life in America could be like if Congress ever bans firearms.

After Australian lawmakers passed widespread gun bans, owners were forced to surrender about 650,000 weapons, which were later slated for destruction, according to statistics from the Australian Sporting Shooters Association.

The bans were not limited to so-called "assault" weapons or military-type firearms, but also to .22 rifles and shotguns. The effort cost the Australian government about $500 million, said association representative Keith Tidswell.

Though lawmakers responsible for passing the ban promised a safer country, the nation's crime statistics tell a different story:

* Countrywide, homicides are up 3.2 percent;

* Assaults are up 8.6 percent;

* Amazingly, armed robberies have climbed nearly 45 percent;

* In the Australian state of Victoria, gun homicides have climbed 300 percent;

* In the 25 years before the gun bans, crime in Australia had been dropping steadily;

* There has been a reported "dramatic increase" in home burglaries and assaults on the elderly.

At the time of the ban, which followed an April 29, 1996 shooting at a Port Arthur tourist spot by lone gunman Martin Bryant, the continent had an annual murder-by-firearm rate of about 1.8 per 100,000 persons

[marine air]

The U. S. is awash in guns. There must be 5 for every man, woman, and child. The cost to acquire certain types needs to be increased and taxed so that like machine guns, you can have an assault rifle or pistol but it's going to cost you.
Just like in Iraq, there needs to be a cash incentive for people to turn in their excess guns. Where does it say in our constitution that citizens shall have the right to bear arms capable of committing mass murders and massacres against humanity?
You can buy very lethal guns designed for killing humans, nothing else, for the price of a cheap t.V. set.
Enough is enough!

[rwdfresno]

With respect, bdk, I suggested that this thread should not be used for the same old polarised argument regarding gun control. It's clear that the gun advocates won't change their views any more than those who don't like the gun issue. It's a pointless argument here - no one's going to convince anyone else to change their views.

I'm very disappointed with the posters who've been keener to discuss gun control before taking a moment to acknowledge the untimely murders.

I appreciate your efforts to promote your view with rational argument and statistics. However, phrases like 'before gun control gained popularity' can only come from a pro-gun point of view; the UK like Australia, has never had a pro-gun culture, or heavy gun useage. There are interesting case studies such as the explosion in Maori deaths and the gun control in New Zealand during the Maori Wars era, for those that are interested and with an open mind on the matter. Australia, New Zealand and Canada, like the US had a frontier era in their history, yet only the US has held onto 'the right to bear arms' which is a historical footnote to defend against Indians and the British - new roles for old rules.

It is notable that the statistics quoted place stable democracies with low gun ownership (legal and illegal) and low gang and organised crime levels as 'worse' than those without. (Denmark, New Zealand, et al) The obvious reason is (a) having lots of guns prevents crime or (b) reported crime is higher in countries with an effective (and trusted) law enforcement.

There's a lot to be said in that debate - however it's clear that no debate, just polarised views can happen here. You aren't going to convince the anti-gun lobby, and they aren't going to convince you, and this is no place for that argument.

This thread, originally a memoriam for a shocking massacre, should be locked, IMHO.

If you are so disappointed than why are joining among the ranks of those who are discussing the matter. What you are affectively saying is: you reprobates should be ashamed for using this opportunity to spread your agenda; now here is mine.

Ryan

[Mark_Pilkington]

BDK

I have chosen to reply to you since you seemed to be addressing my earlier post and taking great concern at my use of the term "end of story"?, rather than my last post above? and in particular brought some interesting facts to the table, that I was interested to comment on.

I didnt intend my - "end of story" comments to suggest the "last word" or to gag or disregard others facts or opinions but to simply state ehat I felt was the basic fact or issue either to agree or dis-agree with.

happy to look at your facts, and statistics? which seem to show a firearm murder rate per capita in the US that is 10 times that of Australia and 25 times that of the UK - I am glad to accept those statistics as fact? I cant see how they argue against gun laws? in Australia or the UK, or suggest a horrific rise in the UK because of gun laws?


As per the stats in your first link
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita


Firearm Murders
per capita.............................relative to USA
0.0279271.........USA.......................100%
0.00293678.......Australia..................11%
0.00102579.......UK............................4%

I would think your stats are pretty much - "end of story" simple & concise

I dont understand how the quote relating to both the US "comparitive 'low rate of suicides" but "higher gun related suicides" has any relevance to the above stats you provide as they are clearly marked "FIREARM MURDERS" and therefore apparantly not including any suicide related gun deaths?

In regard to higher than average crime rates for rape, car thefts etc in Australia thats another matter.

We have significant encouragement of reporting of rapes but that may not explain the higher rates, and we certainly have a high car theft rate, no denying that, still no justification or relationship to gun laws in my humble opinion?

There doesnt seem to be any evidence of any increase in either being associated with gun laws, our women were not armed with handguns (or high powered ex-military semi-automatics?) to protect themselves against rape before the introduction of gun laws so I dont think guns are impacting on those statistics?

In relation to police numbers per capita I am surprised at the low level for the US (not even making the list) and can therefore understand the personal safety concerns that may create for US citizens, perhaps there is a link between gun deaths and police numbers? rather than gun laws?

Thats a fact I was unware of until now, thanks for that information, would it cause me to accept lower police numbers in Australia and more guns on the streets here? "no" - end of story

Should the US seek greater numbers of police on the street as a way to encourage guns off the street voluntarily? I dont know? but that would seem an issue worth exploring perhaps?


Thanks for the facts and stats, I'm not trying to portray Australia as some ideal place to live, we obviously have work to do in rapes and car theft, I am simply commenting on our experiences in gun control and trying to correct mis-information on the situation in Australia being posted here.

This is my last word on this matter, - not to gag or silence others, but simply to get on with other things

However if anyone has strong objections to my statements or comments, please feel free to email me or PM me to make your concerns known, I am not setting out to upset anyone, these are all just my opinions and experiences, and I am happy to be enlighted by Facts and Figures, just not "mis-information", this is not an intent to have the "last word", just an attempt to bring my own involvement in this thread to a close.


regards again

Mark Pilkington

[Mudge]

I firmly believe that the First Amendment to the US Constitution (and all the others, for that matter) only exist today because of the Second Amendment. Our Founding Fathers had a pretty good idea of what can happen when the "powers that be" are the ONLY ones to have weapons. It's called TYRANNY. I'm not saying that it always happens, but it can. I cite, as an example, Germany in the 1930s. One of the first things Hitler did was to disarm the populace. "It will be a much safer nation when only the police and military have weapons." The last part of that statement was unsaid. It was: "And we can do what we bloody well please."

Mudge the armed

ps Sic Semper Tyrannis

pps Mark...Would you mind giving us your age? Yes, I do believe it's relevant.