Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:13 am
Unortunately, ignoring the issue won't make it go away.
I'm still wondering how a group...a GROUP of people allows a single man to execute them. I'd have thought that we'd learned something from 9/11. Do the sheeple really no longer have a personal sense of self-defense and security? Does everyone really believe that the police or "someone else" will provide for them?
Tragedy.
As a side note...5 US soldiers died in Iraq today, and they aren't getting their own memorial thread on WIX. Think about it.
I'm still wondering how a group...a GROUP of people allows a single man to execute them. I'd have thought that we'd learned something from 9/11. Do the sheeple really no longer have a personal sense of self-defense and security? Does everyone really believe that the police or "someone else" will provide for them?
Tragedy.
As a side note...5 US soldiers died in Iraq today, and they aren't getting their own memorial thread on WIX. Think about it.
Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:48 am
My deepest sympathy to the family and friends of those who lost their lives in such a senseless act of violence.
The comparison of deaths in Iraq today is important reminder of the value of human life and its tragic loss anywhere, for any reason, but these students and teachers didnt sign up for military service, have no training to tackle and dis-arm a gunman, oand had no expectation of the risk of being killed today when they went to school.
Having been the victim of an armed robbery myself many year ago I dont think its fair to say a lack of self-defence or security that causes you "not to take on" an armed attacker when you are unarmed yourself, your primary interest is to avoid being shot anyway you can, and police or "someone else" coming to your rescue does not come into it, you are as alone in that situation as you are on your first final approach when you go on your first solo.
Without entering, igniting or enflaming the debate (and wix isnt the forum for it anyway) the issue of gun control and the underlying easy access for disturbed and stressed members of the public is one that the US will need to contemplate itself, seriously, and soon.
In Australia we had a worse massacre at Port Arthur and have survived gun control with limited damage to our sporting shooters or farmers ability to protect their crops/livestock, but a significant halving of deaths due to guns.
Again my deepest sympathy for those killed, injured or touched by this tragedy.
Regards
Mark Pilkington
Randy Haskin Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:13 am Post subject:
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Unortunately, ignoring the issue won't make it go away.
I'm still wondering how a group...a GROUP of people allows a single man to execute them. I'd have thought that we'd learned something from 9/11. Do the sheeple really no longer have a personal sense of self-defense and security? Does everyone really believe that the police or "someone else" will provide for them?
Tragedy.
As a side note...5 US soldiers died in Iraq today, and they aren't getting their own memorial thread on WIX. Think about it.
The comparison of deaths in Iraq today is important reminder of the value of human life and its tragic loss anywhere, for any reason, but these students and teachers didnt sign up for military service, have no training to tackle and dis-arm a gunman, oand had no expectation of the risk of being killed today when they went to school.
Having been the victim of an armed robbery myself many year ago I dont think its fair to say a lack of self-defence or security that causes you "not to take on" an armed attacker when you are unarmed yourself, your primary interest is to avoid being shot anyway you can, and police or "someone else" coming to your rescue does not come into it, you are as alone in that situation as you are on your first final approach when you go on your first solo.
Without entering, igniting or enflaming the debate (and wix isnt the forum for it anyway) the issue of gun control and the underlying easy access for disturbed and stressed members of the public is one that the US will need to contemplate itself, seriously, and soon.
In Australia we had a worse massacre at Port Arthur and have survived gun control with limited damage to our sporting shooters or farmers ability to protect their crops/livestock, but a significant halving of deaths due to guns.
Again my deepest sympathy for those killed, injured or touched by this tragedy.
Regards
Mark Pilkington
Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:50 am
I'm not suggesting we ignore the issue Randy, I'm just saying this isn't the place for a debate - it's a forum about warbirds.
That is, indeed also a tragedy. However an essential difference is when you sign up for the military, there's an expectation of military risk - including death. When you sign up for university, you don't expect to be shot at.
I wonder how many Iraqis died today? It's easy to make points about this - each untimely death is a tragedy, nevertheless.
Personally I'd take moment's thought that our lives can move on, but too many were stopped or disrupted for ever, today.
Randy Haskin wrote:As a side note...5 US soldiers died in Iraq today, and they aren't getting their own memorial thread on WIX. Think about it.
That is, indeed also a tragedy. However an essential difference is when you sign up for the military, there's an expectation of military risk - including death. When you sign up for university, you don't expect to be shot at.
I wonder how many Iraqis died today? It's easy to make points about this - each untimely death is a tragedy, nevertheless.
Personally I'd take moment's thought that our lives can move on, but too many were stopped or disrupted for ever, today.
Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:56 am
my thoughts to the familys and friends of the victims.
may this be the last time we have to see these kind of headlines.
may this be the last time we have to see these kind of headlines.
Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:23 am
First of all...understand that I'm as pro-gun as one can get. I won't get into a discussion with the anti-gun fanatics as there is nothing I can say that will change their opinion. You can pass all the anti-gun laws you want and they won't stop the "goblins" from committing crimes with guns. (Check the definition of "CRIMINAL".)
You want to discuss this further, meet me at "Off Topic".
Mudge the armed
You want to discuss this further, meet me at "Off Topic".
Mudge the armed
Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:32 am
As a side note...5 US soldiers died in Iraq today, and they aren't getting their own memorial thread on WIX. Think about it.
Good point Randy. People die by the dozen in Iraq and they don't get 5 minutes of rememberance by the news. But when it happens in the U.S. it will be on the top news for weeks.
I guess thats because it happened so close to home, but we all have to remember that just because we have two oceans protecting us does not mean we are safe.
Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:42 am
I guarrantee you that if someone tried that in the vicinity of some of my friends, that their time would be very short. It's too bad someone there didn't have a concealed carry with them. Criminal elements will always have access to weapons that they obtain illegally. Our CC laws here in TX came after the Killeen shooting (that's pretty close to our ranch) that's been making the news again. One of the TX representatives was in the building and her parents were shot, and she knew that if she'd had a weapon she could've at least tried to stop the guy.
Ryan
Ryan
Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:45 am
Nathan wrote:Good point Randy. People die by the dozen in Iraq and they don't get 5 minutes of rememberance by the news. But when it happens in the U.S. it will be on the top news for weeks.
It prolly won't last in the news since Al Sharpton is not involved! (see Don Imus)
Speaking of the differences of a University and the military, I heard on the radio that a soldier in Iraq had to call back home to see if a buddy at the school was OK. Seems like it should be the other way around.
I wonder how the soldiers feel about that... there they are putting their lives on the line "defending Americans" and the very people they are defending do things like this. (yes, I know, the guy was Korean)
My thoughts and prayers go out to all involved.
Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:49 am
Ryan, A CCW wouldn't have made any difference in the VT case. The school requires that ALL firearms be turned in to the campus police. If even a CCW holder had been armed in the classroom, (in spite of the ban), and stopped the killings (using lethal force) they probably would be expelled and prosecuted.
Mudge the cynic
Mudge the cynic
Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:04 am
Just hold on now. The anti-gun folks are correct. Ban the guns and you won't have anymore killings.
Just like the war on drugs. We banned drugs and we don't have any problem with them anymore! Right?
Regards,
t~
Just like the war on drugs. We banned drugs and we don't have any problem with them anymore! Right?
Regards,
t~
Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:07 am
Thanks to everyone for the kind wishes. Lisa's fine, but still not sure whether she knew anyone directly involved with the killings. We all still have a lot to find out regarding the events of yesterday.
But instead of focusing on the gun control debate, or the culpability of the university, I would like to honor the bravery and sacrifice of one man- Liviu Librescu.
He was a 78 year old internationally renowned aerodynamicist and Romanian Holocaust survivor who blocked the door of his classroom (Room 204, Norris Hall) with his body as the gunman attempted to burst in, allowing his students precious time to escape out the windows. Librescu was killed, but it seems all his students survived.
He died that others may live- the strongest and truest definition of HERO. It makes me tear up just thinking about it. So, to honor him, I have changed my avatar- it's truly not much, but I feel compelled to do SOMETHING to recognize him.
For now, let us think of Liviu Librescu, and his courageous sacrifice.
Lynn
But instead of focusing on the gun control debate, or the culpability of the university, I would like to honor the bravery and sacrifice of one man- Liviu Librescu.
He was a 78 year old internationally renowned aerodynamicist and Romanian Holocaust survivor who blocked the door of his classroom (Room 204, Norris Hall) with his body as the gunman attempted to burst in, allowing his students precious time to escape out the windows. Librescu was killed, but it seems all his students survived.
He died that others may live- the strongest and truest definition of HERO. It makes me tear up just thinking about it. So, to honor him, I have changed my avatar- it's truly not much, but I feel compelled to do SOMETHING to recognize him.
For now, let us think of Liviu Librescu, and his courageous sacrifice.
Lynn
Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:14 am
I noticed that those who've posted about the need for concealed weapons have written little, if anything, about concern for the victims. How about a little less self interest, and a bit more sympathy for those who've lost their lives and their loved ones?
Thankfully, none of my friends were involved, but two professors from my old department, engineering, were killed, and several of my brother's students lost close friends. You should be thinking, and praying for these people, instead of navel gazing.
These kids weren't sheeple... and all of you who've said this should be ashamed of yourselves. The victims were mostly kids. Few of them will have had military training. I have heard no confirmed reports of students being lined up to be shot. This thing happened too quickly for that. The guy just burst into rooms and began shooting. There was no time for any kind of reaction. Concealed weapons would have been of little use. It's easy to say what you might have done in the calm of your own living rooms... it's a whole different story in real life.
Anyway, it's just an awful tragedy, and it's that that we should be focusing on.
Richard
Thankfully, none of my friends were involved, but two professors from my old department, engineering, were killed, and several of my brother's students lost close friends. You should be thinking, and praying for these people, instead of navel gazing.
These kids weren't sheeple... and all of you who've said this should be ashamed of yourselves. The victims were mostly kids. Few of them will have had military training. I have heard no confirmed reports of students being lined up to be shot. This thing happened too quickly for that. The guy just burst into rooms and began shooting. There was no time for any kind of reaction. Concealed weapons would have been of little use. It's easy to say what you might have done in the calm of your own living rooms... it's a whole different story in real life.
Anyway, it's just an awful tragedy, and it's that that we should be focusing on.
Richard
Last edited by RMAllnutt on Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:57 am
Randy Haskin wrote:I'm still wondering how a group...a GROUP of people allows a single man to execute them. I'd have thought that we'd learned something from 9/11. Do the sheeple really no longer have a personal sense of self-defense and security?
I don't think it's appropriate to blame the victims deaths on their inaction in this setting. They were just a bunch of scared kids, hoping they would somehow be spared. It's easy to say what we would have done, because we're saying it from our comfortable seats behind our keyboards.
If you're going to blame anyone, blame the shooter instead.
Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:27 pm
I really don't think anyone is trying to blame the victims. The victims are just that victims and shouldn't be made to look as anything but that. The shooter is obviously the one that any and all blame should be directed at. it is sickening and tragic.
I realize that some are close to this situation so I will make my point brief: I think that an event of this magnitude is an appropriate time to discuss things that may have contributed or even helped prevent or lessen such a tragic event. Some are frustrated by the fact that this tragic event will be used as playing card for those on the political stage. Many thousands of people died in part to protect the right to bear arms so it really isn't a matter of self interest rather than a matter of the greater interest.
Brining this particular aspect into the discussion isn't meant to trivialize the situation into a talking point. It is a terrible situation, and unfortunately the mass press on the situation will only increase the likelihood that it will happen again. I pray for the families and it does put a bit of a scare into everyone that their family members could have been in that situation.
Ryan
I realize that some are close to this situation so I will make my point brief: I think that an event of this magnitude is an appropriate time to discuss things that may have contributed or even helped prevent or lessen such a tragic event. Some are frustrated by the fact that this tragic event will be used as playing card for those on the political stage. Many thousands of people died in part to protect the right to bear arms so it really isn't a matter of self interest rather than a matter of the greater interest.
Brining this particular aspect into the discussion isn't meant to trivialize the situation into a talking point. It is a terrible situation, and unfortunately the mass press on the situation will only increase the likelihood that it will happen again. I pray for the families and it does put a bit of a scare into everyone that their family members could have been in that situation.
Ryan
Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:06 pm
Apparently Liviu Librescu had enough notice to block the door and for his students to escape. Surely that would be enough time for he or one of his students to unholster the heat and put a stop to this.RMAllnutt wrote:The guy just burst into rooms and began shooting. There was no time for any kind of reaction. Concealed weapons would have been of little use.