Warbird Information Exchange

Hi Bill,

Uhhh yeah I'd say your experience is of interest.

It's interesting you mention people trying to talk me out of it. Almost everyone has been fully supportive, encouraging, free with the advice....

All except one guy - not a member of this forum. This fellow claims to have been a Big Deal airshow pilot in 51's with tons of time in Bearcats and P-47's as well, and, strangest of all, a very experienced CFII. Since he claimed he had 51 experience I asked him a few questions:

His view was that I shouldn't even think of trying - that "I''ve met people like you - who think someone will just turn over the keys to their Mustang to you". He said I should be content with a Stallion 51 one hour intro ride and not look any higher than that. He has neither met me nor knows me in any way.

And I found it highly strange that a CFII would ever try to prevent someone from achieving a goal.

So my reply to him was a healthy FU.

As for Spin training I hungered for it as today's PPL curricula doesn't supply it. So I had a Navy pilot buddy of mine give me a bunch in a 152. And now I'm totally comfortable doing that fun thing. I even have a crummy film of that guy teaching me a spin on my web page:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Flight.html

Scroll down and click on the white diagram of a spin.

400+ hours got you into a Spit eh? I see that it's a two place - really handy. Beautiful plane too. And the Spit is a bit safer plane to fly than a 51? Can you tell us in what ways?

I like your idea of doing all your T-6 training from the rear seat right off the bat.

thanks for the advice and encouragement.

Congrats on the IFR and the T-6 time. Are you getting formal T-6 instruction? Or is is "just" stick time? I say "just" in quotes - it's highly valuable.

What set me up for doing well in the close formation stationkeeping was that I had already learned the benefits of flying the Super Decathlon with my thumb and forefinger, and working the stick as if I was writing with a pencil (except for the acro maneuvers - thre I take a firmer grasp).

Thanks for the tip!

Saville, as for the relative safety of fighters, it might be a matter of opinion. One of the people whose advice I relied on was Bill Ross, very experienced military and waribird pilot who had owned Spitfire, Mustang, P-38, etc. His daughter Polly is a pilot, lives in Aspen and is a friend of mine. Bill had flown 3 models of Spits and had top reports on them. He knew I was a novice, had nothing but encouragement before and after I bought it. Anway, the most important thing about safety is the pilot. But Spitfires, especially the Merlin ones have execellent low speed handling, in the pattern, on approach, go around, etc. Famous Brit test pilot Charlie Brown, writing on Spit MH 434, "I have not flown an airplane with better stall characteristcs." That's any airplane, not just a warbird. So I thought was the one for me. Also, there weren't that many Spits on the market, especially dual controls, so if I had passed it up I might not have another chance. I have never regreted the purchase. I will put some training suggestions on here later. Formation is a topic that seems to have a lot of interest, so I will start another site. Good luck

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Saville - it's my opinion, but it takes a lot more than some time in a 150 to truly learn spins. You really need to understand inverted spins, crossover spins, flat spins, accelerated spins, etc. The key thing is to get comfortable enough during any spin so that you can logically think about what is going on with the aircraft, and how to recover. A Decathlon is a good start, but then work up to a Pitts. I've posted this before, but you have to spin a lot of different aircraft in a lot of different modes before you can really get confident with spinning aircraft. Every plane is different, and in a spin - especially an unintentional one - you have a limited amount of time to figure out how to recover before the ground does it for you.

At Warbirds Over Wanaka in 2000 I was flying the SNJ with Tom Middleton and got into a heated argument with him over spin recovery techniques. He felt that since he could handle a Mustang and the Polikarpovs that he knew enough about airplanes, and told me he didn't do any of that "foolish stuff" like flat spins. Six months later he was killed (along with a passenger) when he spun in in a Pitts S-2A. It haunts me to this day.

Any recommended texts for aerobatics?

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REMEMBER THE SERGEANT PILOTS!

May I add a note to what DB2(sounds like a Bond car) wrote about spins? First, The idea in most heavy warbirds, fighters bombers is to avoid unintentional spins. About nobody goes up in a P-51 and regularly tries spin it. It was never part of Hoovers act, and the manual specifically cautions agianst it below 10,000 agl. Second, NASA research makes the point that the first two turns of a spin are only the entry, and a plane may come out redily then, but then the character changes after more turns. Isn't this true of the Pitts?

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

The first 1.5 turn or 2 of a spin in a P-51 is just the entry while it is getting settled down. After that, a well developed spin occurs. Recovery is truely Pitts simple: power off, aileron neutral, opposite rudder and stick forward. In one to two turns, you have a recovery. The only unusual part of the spin recovery is that compared to the Pitts, opposite rudder forces are higher; plus to effect a good recovery, complete and full opposite rudder inputs are required. With the Pitts, one could get away with partial rudder and effect a rather sloppy recovery.
(These are o-club comments; get thorough T-6 training in spins before trying them in the P-51. They are not dangerous - you just want to be sure you know how to recovery convincingly!!).
VL
PS: The Mustang is an airplane that really does not want to do a spin - you have to use strong pro-spin controls to get into one; it will recover from a spin almost on its own, but without strong pro-recovery controls, it will use lots of altitude to recover by itself. Again: key=training.

Vlado has more Mustang time than most anybody, probably more time in a 51 than I have in church, maybe more 51 time than he has in church! So I went back to the pilots notes(British for manual, could not locate the US version) and sure enough both say recover within 2 turns of spin entry, which is also for T-34. For Spit IXetc. "Spins are permitted and recovery is normal, but the loss of height involved in revcovery may be very great, Spins are not to be started below 10,000', Recovery is to be initiated before two turns are completed, A speed of 150 mph should be attained before starting to ease out of the resultant dive." The notes for P-51B, "Practice spins are not to be started below 12,000', and the engine is to be Throttled Back before starting the spin, Recovery action is to be taken after not more than two turns." It then has a long section on oscilation on entry, type of recovery, flat spin problems if power is left on, and 180mph recovery speed. Finally "The average loss of height in two turns and in recovery, is about 3000-3500 feet". My point is a lot of spin practice in Pitts,T-6, 51 is great training, you may be the first guy good enough to incorporate fighter spins into an airshow act; However in my limited opinion if you spin out of a loop at 1500 feet, or turning base to final, all the spin training above 10,000' is not going to be the answer. I may be too negative in this veiw, I am a little tender on this as the man who taught me to fly warbirds almost recovered from a Mustang spin from about 2000'. He was an ex Nam combat pilot, winner of the Silver race at Reno and an experienced 51 airshow, as well as Falcon corporate pilot. The man in the back seat was an experienced T-6 and Pitts pilot, both were Fathers as well as my friends. I have never flown a Pitts, nor spun a 51, both training I hope to do when some extra money shows up. Sorry I can't find my U S 51 or T-6 manuals, they may be under my pile of back issues of Lap Dancer International, that was part of my new years resolution to clean up as soon as I quit spending so much time on WIX.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

DB2:

I should have worded my post much more carefully:

I'm totally comfortable doing spins in a C-152. Normal spins, and recovering after three to four turns.

I'm not nearly as comfy doing them in the Decathlon, and for the simple "beginner's" reason that spin entry seems a little trickier to me in the Decathlon. And I've only done about 3 of them and they all were ONLY one turn spins as that's the competition maneuver ( a one turn spin with precision to the stop, followed by a second or two of truly vertical down, then a pull out followed by a loop (if I have the airspeed).

As for the other sorts of spins..no no no - it wasn't my intention to lead anyone on into thinking I was claiming to be a spin expert.

I do intend to move up to a Pitts or an Extra once I'm done with the basic acro work.

thanks

Well the one I have is:

Basic Aerobatics (Paperback)
by Geza Szurovy and Mike Goulian

As Mike Goulina runs the acro school I go to I guess it'll be his book on the shelf.

I can't compare it with others as I haven't read others, but it seems ok. I like the layout of the descriptions for each maneuver.

You can get it on Amazon for about $20.00

Saville

That's funny.... I'm left wondering if I have more time sitting
in my SNJ project making 1340 noises than I do sitting in
church....

I have an old VHS P-51 "checkout" tape (forget what it's called,
it's in a box somewhere) and if I recall correctly, the pilot doing the
narration said the '51 is placarded against spins (commencing)
below 13,000 feet.

The type certificate for the T-6 (a-2-575) says to placard both
cockpits stating (among other things) "Intentional Spinning Prohibited".

Bela P. Havasreti

Saville, I'm not a 51 expert, but my impressions may be of use. As I said you need to be at least a good, pilot for T-6, 51, etc. If you were to grade yourself from 10 on down or A,B,C; in a simple and docile trainer like a 150, you should pretty much be a solid 9 or 10, with no major weak points that could be critically unsafe as you move up. You have to Want to do it right and correct youself when needed. I flew with a poor pilot once who no interest in getting better. Basic methods can stay with you, I know I tended to be a little fast or high on approach as a student and I still am at times( low and slow can be deadly). I learned good rudder control in the Cub and T-6 and it seemed to work well when I flew Crazy Horse or Spit. Wish I had more 220 Stearman time, try to get some, for tailwheel handling in a plane with large tires and some weight. Of course the T-6 is considered the standard for Advanced trainers. It really gets your attention when you practice power on cross control accelerated stalls(up high of course). It has enough power on takeoff or go around to deal with, the controls are effective, and complex gear, flaps, and fuel systems. You can and should learn both wheel and 3 point landings. If you are a good acro pilot in Stearman or T-6, it is mostly pilot and not the plane doing it for you. How long? Maybe 50 T-6 hours. I soloed it in after a long weekend, but remember the Spit I was going into was dual control so I could get another 20 hours before fighter solo. Back after dinner to finish.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

I have them all and that book is definitely the best intro to aerobatics. The follow-on book, "Advanced Aerobatcs" is quite good as well and offers a lot of explanation of advanced spins.

Back on spins, to me the important thing is to get comfortable enough that you can look over the nose in any attitude and establish the direction of the yaw, so of course you can apply the correct rudder input. It can be harder than you think! When I was getting my Pitts check-out, we did, at my insistence, about 12 hours of spins (I needed 15 TT in the plane for the insurance). I would close my eyes, and the instructor would put the plane into a fully developed spin of some mode (e.g. inverted accelerated), and I would open my eyes and then try to recover. A couple times, I got it wrong, which will scare the !@# out of you.

It's true that with most any airplane it takes two turns for the spin to fully develop, and the key is to get the aircaft stopped in that period. Most airplanes will oscillate the nose up and down every 90 deg during the first couple turns, which slows the initial rate of rotation. (In competition spins, this can be a problem, as you want to recover straight down and not have to "push" down. However, "catching" the oscillation can be quite an advantage when using power and/or out-spin aileron to enter a flat spin).

I've never flown any fighter (though I would sure like to!), but have done some spinning in a T-6. One thing to watch out for is that, due to the heavy rotational inertia on bigger birds, it can take several turns to stop a fully developed spin after the correct inputs are made. You can start to question whether or not you have made the right inputs, which is why it is important to be able to establish the direction of the yaw (and trust your decision). I did 6 turns in a T-6 once before initiating recovery, and I think it took 2.5 turns for it stop after that. Too violent a recovery too early can have the opposite effect...crossing over into an inverted spin. That's when it gets really confusing.

I once blindly and stupidly agreed to ride backseat in a Decathlon to a former Russian AF pilot at an aerobatic contest. He slammed the stick forward in the recovery and we crossed over into an inverted spin. Then, thinking he was still going to recover as if he was upright, he kept the controls where they were and froze! I had to physically beat my fists on the back of his head to get him to release the controls and recover by about 1700 ft. Scary stuff.

Obviously, when flying warbirds you will probably avoid any intentional spins. That said, however, I think some recent high-profile crashes - the Firefly in the UK comes to mind - may have been avoided had the pilots been better practiced/more proficient on the recognition of and recovery from incipient spins.

Aerobatic books: Duanne Cole's books "Roll Around a Point" (or something like that) and Bill Thomas,"Fly for Fun" and "Fly for Fun to Win"