RECENT POST WITH A LINK TO CHINA LAKE RELICS

[greasemonkey]

On a recent thread someone gave a link to a China link wesite regarding b-29 relics. If sone where there in the mid 1980's there has to be something left! maybe not intact aircraft but salvagable parts?



http://www.chinalakealumni.org/Relics-b29-1.htm

[m50a1ontos]

There is ONE, UNO, 1 and ONLY, ONE, UNO, 1, B-29 left. It is NOT available to anybody. No, you may NOT got see it, it's in a restricted area. NO parts are available, to anyone. Even if there were parts, nobody would get any because so many other B-29 parts scroungers bending and outright breaking the rules have ruined any possibility of that ever happening again.

You want to know what happend to 'em all? Go look in your kitched cuboards at all the aluminum pots and pans or that cold frosty beverage you just popped open in that aluminum can.....

Or ask Disney Corp what they did with all the ones THEY took (above what they were suposed to take), Ask the CAF what they took besides FIFI, Ask all the other museums that helped them selves to what ever they wanted back when all that stuff was "just old range junk". Go see the compound that Aero Trader has and you'll find a B-29 and the rest of the B-29 that is still here at China Lake. I could go on but my blood pressure will start to climb.

All the shenanigans that went on here "back in the day" and continued until recently has pretty much screwed the warbird comunity of getting anything from the Military.....especially the Navy ever again....unless you have a dozen or so congress critter's to pass specific legeslation for a particular "thing"....(and completly alienating/p!ssing in the wheaties of who ever has that "thing" in the proscess)....or you have a museum with MAJOR pull at the NHC or CMH....or have the big wheel at the Navy Museum at pepsi-cola in your pocket....

It ain't gonna happen. At least not at China Lake.

[jmkendall]

Rob,

With all due respect, I don't see what the actions of those who removed parts from China lake in the 60s and 70s have anything to do with the current attitude toward the warbird community.

After all,in that time frame the NAVY was actively destroying and scrapping the aircraft on the range. I have an old Air Classics issue where the author tells of finding several B-29 airframes in a Civilian scrapyard and buying parts from the scrapper for the cost of the aluminum.

That was also the timeframe that the Navy was scrapping Hellcats by the gross ( ok an exageration).

Back in the 60s and 70s it WAS JUST JUNK to the Navy.

My Grandfather ( a retired Naval Officer) and I found a crashed and essentially intact F6F in the mountains of the Great Basin area near NAS Fallon, around 1973. My Grandfather notified the authorities, because he felt it belonged in a Museum. The Navy promptly airlifted it out of there and SCRAPPED it.

Even in the 80s it was still regarded as junk. How many airframes did the Navy scrap in the 80s? Does anyone remember the P-39 at Paux river the Navy Scrapped/pushed into landfill in the late 70s/early 80s? Didn't the Navy scrap a TBM in the last 10 years cause it was surplus to needs?

I really dont' understand their attitude.

As for getting someone mad at you for invoking Congressional intervention, who cares? If they are going to sit on it then getting them mad is irrelavent.

[bdk]

Does anyone remember the P-39 at Paux river the Navy Scrapped/pushed into landfill in the late 70s/early 80s?

That was the prototype Bell Airobonita I believe, the navalised version of the P-39.

[m50a1ontos]

It's true that the Navy WAS scrapping things and blowing even more things up wholsale back then. And it's a credit to those that DID manage to save what they did. It's how they took advantage of that generosity later on as warbirds became more than just old range junk. When "whomever" get's permission to remove something from Navy property they're only suposed to take what they're allowed to take....not whatever they wanted to grab on their way out the gate. As more stuff drove out the front gate and started flying around.....and crashing, the Navy started getting sued every time a smoking hole appeared where something they sold or gave away augered in...especially when civilian bodies got scattered about. Parts and whole aircraft specificaly marked "not safe for flight" were flown and used in flying aircraft. Restorations were NOT what they are today where a data plate and a rusty oleo are all you need to restore an airplane (okay, I'm egagerating.....a little) It's gotten so bad that Donating something to one museum gets a lawsuit filed by another museum because THEY didn't get the same thing their competeter did (Museums can get real cutthroat when it comes to aquisitions....seen it done). With todays operations tempo, shutting down a range, even on a weekend or holiday costs far more than most museums can afford....to simply go on a shopping trip through the junkyard? I think even Paull Allen would blanch at what an hour of range time + security escort + recovery personel and equipment would cost.

As far as recent scrappings....those things were probably offered...but with no qualified takers? or qualified takers that could afford said items (recovery, transport and assembly all cost money, how much have YOU given to a museum to facilitate a recovery....hmm?).

And your crack about getting somebody mad by sicing your congress critter on 'em....well sir you obviously have never been on the receiving end of a congresional request. It generally p!sses everybody in the chain of command off from the Admiral who gets the call down to the maintenance guys and gals who have to do the grunt work in addition to their normal duties....They have better things to do than go collect a pile of junk for sombody. Nobody volunteers for things like that anymore...the ones that do are a rare breed and usually end up getting the shaft like I did. So you can take your "who cares" crack and put it somewhere dark buddy

Coming from both sides of the fence, I can understand the attitude to some degree....what's inside the fence has rules that have to be followed, ...what's outside the fence I think should go to whoever finds it (as long as it's not a war grave...) But I don't make policy...the Lawyers and guys with egg on their hats do that. If you want an explanation....go ask them.

[B-29 Super Fort]

There is ONE, UNO, 1 and ONLY, ONE, UNO, 1, B-29 left. It is NOT available to anybody. No, you may NOT got see it, it's in a restricted area. NO parts are available, to anyone. Even if there were parts, nobody would get any because so many other B-29 parts scroungers bending and outright breaking the rules have ruined any possibility of that ever happening again.

You want to know what happend to 'em all? Go look in your kitched cuboards at all the aluminum pots and pans or that cold frosty beverage you just popped open in that aluminum can.....

Or ask Disney Corp what they did with all the ones THEY took (above what they were suposed to take), Ask the CAF what they took besides FIFI, Ask all the other museums that helped them selves to what ever they wanted back when all that stuff was "just old range junk". Go see the compound that Aero Trader has and you'll find a B-29 and the rest of the B-29 that is still here at China Lake. I could go on but my blood pressure will start to climb.

All the shenanigans that went on here "back in the day" and continued until recently has pretty much screwed the warbird comunity of getting anything from the Military.....especially the Navy ever again....unless you have a dozen or so congress critter's to pass specific legeslation for a particular "thing"....(and completly alienating/p!ssing in the wheaties of who ever has that "thing" in the proscess)....or you have a museum with MAJOR pull at the NHC or CMH....or have the big wheel at the Navy Museum at pepsi-cola in your pocket....

It ain't gonna happen. At least not at China Lake.

How complete is this B-29? Any idea of of a tail number?

[m50a1ontos]

Very incomplete. It's been a year or so since I've been able to get close to it. Everything aft of the rear bomb bay is gone (that part is sitting in Aero Traders bone yard I'm almost certain). Sombody chopped the top of the fuselage out to get the crawl tube out. Bomb bay doors are gone. an outer wing is gone, Flaps are gone. Cockpit is gutted. It's a mess. It was never hit with any big ordinance...just small arms fire. All it's damage was the result of parts robbing. It's a combat vet too, I found 5 bomb symbols under her name.

Here's Hopin 44-70102 444th bomb group

[jmkendall]

Rob,

My intent was not, and is not personally directed toward you. I come from a Navy family. I have Twentyseven years of service in the military. I am a maintenance guy. I have been on the end of a Congresionally complaint. And; it usually hasn't been half as bad as you make it sound.

And; if it is "junk" as you say, then why is the Navy fighting over it?

I have been one of those maintenance folk that has had to take a day off of my regular duties to do something fun and different. Like going out to check a donated bird to make sure it was de-miled properly.

Your points in regard to dishonest people taking unsafe parts and aircraft and passing them off as servicable are valid, and more than valid. It is why the Army stopped cutting structural supports as part of the de-mil process on donation birds.

Your points on people taking more than they are authorized are also valid. I don't condone it. I will point out that some of those "overachievers" were Military Museums. Not strictly part of the warbird community.

As for the Navy and their attitude toward the warbird community; I can't really explain it. You don't see a similar attitude in the Air Force and Army.
Heck when we retired the Cobra and Huey in the Army we actively looked for folks to give them to. I also don't hear any of the same stuff that I hear from China lake from the folks at APG. I admit that the Air Force has gotten a little wierd lately, but; if you want to recover a B-17 from the ocean floor the Air Force is not going to give you any flak.

As for the Congressional. I will simply say that the Navy and Congress are servents of the people. We tell them what we think is appropriate. And; sometimes they need to be reminded of that.

Oh, and I have donated a nice chunk of my own time and resources for various museum/display aircraft over the years.

I really don't want to turn this into anything near personal. It was not intended as such, and I will not respond to any further queries on this thread as things can sometimes get out of hand.

Joe

[retroaviation]

Everything aft of the rear bomb bay is gone (that part is sitting in Aero Traders bone yard I'm almost certain).

I've been to Aero Trader's boneyard a couple of times quite recently to rummage through Kermit's B-29 stuff and I can tell you that I haven't seen this section of B-29 that you're talking about. As far as fuselage stuff is concerned, there are two complete ones there, but no aft sections only.

Gary

[B-29 Super Fort]

Everything aft of the rear bomb bay is gone (that part is sitting in Aero Traders bone yard I'm almost certain).

I've been to Aero Trader's boneyard a couple of times quite recently to rummage through Kermit's B-29 stuff and I can tell you that I haven't seen this section of B-29 that you're talking about. As far as fuselage stuff is concerned, there are two complete ones there, but no aft sections only.

Gary

Gary isn't Kermit's Fertile Mrytle (B-29/45-21787) stored there relatively complete except for the nose section?

[m50a1ontos]

Hmmm...okay. Well back right after Here's Hopin arrived at Inyokern we saw a "then" recent photo of an aft fuselage section that had damage identical to another photo of a complete Here's Hopin. 44-70102 clearly on the tail. I wonder what happend to it. Are those complete sections at Aero Traders assembled? or are they several sections laying together?

[retroaviation]

Well, now that I've gone back to look at my pictures from when I was out there (they certainly help the memory out), the fuselages that are there are disassembled at their factory breaks. PM me if you'd like the pictures of them.

Gary

[rwdfresno]

As more stuff drove out the front gate and started flying around.....and crashing

Can you give me an example of an airframe that was from China Lake, flown and crashed? Not saying there hasn't been any, but you made the comment so now I am curious.

Like I always say, if it was left up to Uncles Sam there would be almost nothing left, so it is hard to sympathize with that point of view.

With todays operations tempo, shutting down a range, even on a weekend or holiday costs far more than most museums can afford....to simply go on a shopping trip through the junkyard?

Tax payers pay for all of it anyways. So maybe it is time that the taxpayers get something for their money.

It's how they took advantage of that generosity later on as warbirds became more than just old range junk.

Somehow giving the taxpayers back something they paid for, then charging the museum to shut down the range, provide security etc, slandering those who did pony up and save the items, then turning the rest into beer cans doesn't exactly seem all that generous.

To exhibit more of the Navy's generosity I would like to recall a situation I was involved with.

In 1997 our we were asked to help host an event for the closing ceremonies for NAS Alameda. As was arranged we hosted a dinner dance in one of the hangars, we arranged for several B-25s a P-51A and a few other Warbirds to be at the ceremony and conduct a flight. We were first told that we could recoup our large expenditure of money by charging the public to come to the event however at last minute we were told that would not be allowed to even ask for donations because the event was still on Navy land. We also couldn't charge for the dinner, the Navy could not provide us with any fuel for the aircraft because they couldn't get authorization to use the Navy fuel tanker to fuel civilian aircraft. At first they also told us that we wouldn't be able to get an outside tanker truck to come in because we could not get permission to bring an avgas truck on the base, but we eventually finally were and to boot they of course did not pay for any of the fuel. We lost many thousands of dollars being involved in that event. I have a lot of experience dealing with the Navy and frankly it is a real headache.

[m50a1ontos]

Farrels Ice Cream Parlor, an F-86 with surplus "unsafe for flight" parts sold through China Lakes DRMO crashes and kills/hurts a bunch of people. Navy got sued because they sold unservicable scrap parts to sombody that put them in a flying aircraft resulting in a smoking hole. I still don't understand why the Navy got sued....sombody was useing fuzzy logic on that one. Another time we got sued was over a pile of scrap railroad track! Sombody told a museum they could have it, sombody else told a different museum THEY could have it. The actual guy in charge found out and told them both museums to go jump in a lake and gave a severe a$$ chewing to the two idividuals who over stepped their authority.

True, taxpayer dollars pay for military operations, parts, aircraft etc. BUT each command has an operating budget. Spending more than your allotted in a fiscal year makes for a VERY poor fitrep and no promotion for you. Commanding Officers take this pretty seriously. Your crack about getting your moneys worth is pathetic. What would you like? To just walk on any military base and help your self to anything you want and oh by the way demand that what ever you want be delivered at taxpayer expense to where ever you want? Get a grip pal!

Once an operating budget is assigned to a command IT"S NOT THE PUBLICS MONEY!!!!! It's not YOUR money. Get over it allready! The Military is not in the business of being generous. They are in the business of keeping this country secure and rendering aid to those affected by disaster. Not dropping whatever they may be doing at the time to hold your hand, pat you on the head and offer you a freshly restored F6F-5 in your favorite squadrons markings along with $100K to operate it for a year.

Your beef with Alameda is your business....but with the apparent attitude I'm detecting I can understand why it probably went down that way. There are knotheads on both sides of the fence. Always have been and always will be. There are also two sides to every story....it would be interesting to hear NAS Alameda's side.......I'll bet rules and regulations came into play, probably driven by budget. navy property, even fuel, is still Navy property. Bringing in gas from an out side source probably violated a few rules and regulations. It may have just been the base CO's decision. When people start demanding their taxpayers money's worth......doors will get slammed shut quick. Don't like what your hard earned cash is buying. Stop paying taxes....then it won't be YOUR money getting "wasted".

[rwdfresno]

The Military is not in the business of being generous.

It was your claim that they were generous not mine. My point is exactly that. They aren't generous. I don't expect them to be. Then again I don't expect them to whine about people "stealing" parts off of birds that if left up to them would be rotting at the bottom of the ocean, blown up, turned into an artificial reef etc.

To just walk on any military base and help your self to anything you want and oh by the way demand that what ever you want be delivered at taxpayer expense to where ever you want? Get a grip pal!

That isn't what I said now is it.

It may have just been the base CO's decision.

It wasn't, the base CO was and still is a personal friend of the family. Many higher ups than him made promises that weren't kept. After many many many dealings with the Navy I have this attitude I didn't just wake up one day with a bone to pick. Like you said there are two sides to every story and you are the one posting your slanderous remarks towards many in the warbird community, all I am doing is offering another point of view.

...it would be interesting to hear NAS Alameda's side

It wasn't NAS Alameda's side, everyone at the base including the brass were disturbed by the Navy's actions. I have been involved in many many Navy/civilian co-operations and this is the same story every time. They begin to co-ordinate and event and then the gradually put more and more roadblocks in your way until you are eventually boxed in. It isn't that I hate the Navy, I love the Navy, I joined the Navy when I was 19. All I am saying is when you come on here whining about how the Navy has been screwed over by civilians, all I can say is you reap the seeds you sew. I wish the civies would have "stolen" a whole bunch more aircraft out of there quite honestly.

I have seen so many times the military waste money that it really doesn't tug at my heart strings to hear about his or that budget.