Future warbirds..

[lestweforget]

Are modern aircraft too complex, expensive and potent to ever be future warbirds? Also are there any more replica manufacture plans in the pipeline like the Yaks, FW-190 or Me-262 that anyone is aware of. Is this the future (how about a run of P-38's or Mossies!) as original airframes become older or more expensive? Just a wee question that I thought might make for some interesting discussion.

[k5083]

There is a run of Mossies being done. The static test fuselage is on display in Windsor Ont. and the first airworthy one will be for Fighter Factory in Virginia.

There are a number of real P-38s in the pipeline, no need for a new production run just yet.

August

[Warbird Kid]

What i say we look at is (maybe by bar graph even) the numer of flyable types of aircraft. Quickly you would see great and dramatic differences between types of aircraft.

For instance: P-51 - bout 120
P-40 - bout 21?

So then in this case why wouldnt we make a new build production line of P-40s? We wouldnt because there are a good number of healthy specimines around. Look at another 'species'. The B-24 or B-26. Nearly extinct. With only a few to show. But what birds have really been lost to time is the majority of the Axis birds. That is where i believe money can be made. Especially if someone decided to produce say the Willow japenese trainer biplane? Now that would be cool.

[gary1954]

I mentioned this in a post earlier, and the idea got shotdown like a B-17 over Frankfurt

[tulsaboy]

Like anything else in life, I think it all comes down to cost. I'd love to get to see some of the Japanese and other axis fighters that are essentially extinct or only exist as single examples preserved safely in museums. The engineering required to scratch build a new one, or even a run of them, would still result in even the cheapest examples costing in the neighborhood of $1 million and up. As a consequence, it keeps ownership of such aircraft exclusively in the realm of the fairly wealthy. Other than real warbird nerds like us, the question by a newly rich pilot becomes, what can this ___ aircraft give me that a P-51 can't? And would I rather have an aircraft for which there is abundant support, or one that is completly unique and difficult to maintain?

As to the bombers, the problem there becomes operating costs. With operating costs for B-24s and B-17s pushing $3000 and $4000 per hour, even if someone could afford to build a B-24 from scratch how many people would really want to pay the millions to buy one and then pay the millions to operate it?

I think at the end of the day, there may be a few types that get ressurected. They will the exception, however, rather than the rule. I would guess that any extinct or super-rare type that gets replicated is more likely to be the result of a committed group of history and aviation buffs, supported by a huge number of volunteers and financial backers, rather than a group looking to turn a profit.

kevin

[lestweforget]

That is where i believe money can be made

I suppose that's what it comes down to. Hypothetically , just for fun , how much do you think it would cost to scratchbuild a B-24. Would it even be feasable to do it ?

[K5DH]

Are modern aircraft too complex, expensive and potent to ever be future warbirds?

Yes, to all three of those.

Ask the Collings guys how challenging and expensive it is to maintain and operate their A-4 Skyhawk and F-4 Phantom II, which are literally 1950s technology. Our current front-line fighters, such as the F-15, F-16, and F-18, were designed in the 1970s. Look at how complex they are (and how dangerous!). Our resident F-15 driver, Randy Haskin, can probably give us an idea of how many man-hours of ground labor are required for each hour of flight. The number will shock you. There are a small number of 1950s-era American high performance jets flying in private hands, such as A-4, F-5/T-38, F-100, F-104, etc, but their operating and maintenance costs have got to be staggering, and you can't just run down to the local airplane parts dealer and buy spares for jets like those.

Here in the US, because of the increased concerns over homeland security, there's no way you'd be allowed to operate a modern warplane because it could be used as an effective weapon if it got into the wrong hands. The Collings Foundation has the ONLY civilian (display category) Phantom II, and it literally took a special act of Congress to make that happen. You can be sure that it won't happen again. Look at the fuss that was made over the de-militarization of F-14 Tomcats because the government was worried that their parts would somehow end up in Iran. Two older Tomcats were confiscated from legitimate museums because they had not been properly demilitarized. The government is even taking a long look at vintage warplanes because they could be armed and used as a weapon again.

Eventually, we might see a few more Century-series fighters restored to flying condition, such as an F-105 or perhaps even an F-106, but you can bet that it won't be easy to license anything that isn't already. A couple of years ago, there was an ex-Blue Angels F-18A offered for purchase on eBay. Its Blue Angels heritage was documented. The selling dealer bought it legitimately through a Navy surplus sale, and it somehow got out without being de-mil'd. The airplane was complete with engines and basic avionics, but nothing sensitive or classified. The FBI and FAA investigated and found no wrong-doing, much to the Navy's dismay. The FAA even issued an N-number (experimental category, obviously). To the best of my knowledge, it never did find a buyer (if I'm wrong, someone please chime in and correct me on that). I'm not surprised. It would take a small army (or Navy!) of mechanics to get it flyable and keep it that way, and can you imagine how much it would cost to keep it fueled? It might be difficult to get an F-18 type rating, too, unless you flew them in the military.

It is very hard these days to import a foreign-made warplane. Before the US government clamped down, MiG fighters and various jet trainers were being imported from China, Poland, the Czech republic, et al, in fairly large numbers. They were cheap to buy and offered the advantage of having huge stocks of spare parts available. Some of those MiGs are flying, along with plenty of L-29s and L-39s, but I don't think you'll see any more coming into the US.

In addition to the potential security threat (real or perceived), there is also the safety aspect. Many people feel that high-performance jet fighters are very risky to operate, and one little mechanical problem or one little lapse in judgement by the pilot could send one crashing down into a schoolyard full of little ones or a busy shopping mall. Of course, the same thing could happen with a Cessna 150, but that's beside the point. The public views light planes as much safer than fighter jets.

Sad state of affairs, eh?

Cheers,

[warbirdcrew]

That is where i believe money can be made

Make money in aviation? Surely you jest

[lestweforget]

Thanks k5dh. That was just the kind of thing I was looking for. Thankyou for your concise and knowledgable answer.

[Dialtapper]

There are a number of real P-38s in the pipeline, no need for a new production run just yet.

August[/quote]

How many P-38 projects do you know of?

Think there looking for some parts?

[Chris Brame]

A couple of years ago, there was an ex-Blue Angels F-18A offered for purchase on eBay.

Dean, was this on the West Coast? This might clear up something I posted (with no response) a couple years ago about seeing an F-18 in Blue Angels markings on a flatbed semi-trailer heading east on Interstate 10 near San Bernardino, CA. (I tried to look up my post but the Search function says it's in "Debug mode" )

[K5DH]

A couple of years ago, there was an ex-Blue Angels F-18A offered for purchase on eBay.

Dean, was this on the West Coast? This might clear up something I posted (with no response) a couple years ago about seeing an F-18 in Blue Angels markings on a flatbed semi-trailer heading east on Interstate 10 near San Bernardino, CA. (I tried to look up my post but the Search function says it's in "Debug mode" )

Chris,

The a/c that I was referring to was stripped of paint when I saw it on eBay, but they had some photos of it during its Blue Angels service. It was disassembled (wings, fins, and tailplanes off, fuselage in two halves, engines not installed) and as I recall, the fuselage halves and other items were sitting on shipping pallets. I believe it was somewhere in California, and it was being offered by a company that deals in military surplus and radio towers (what an odd combination!).

I'm going from memory here, so if I'm wrong, I apologize.

Cheers!

[tom d. friedman]

wow.... repro mosquitos??? done to ww 2 standards, hand made of wood?? that would be a good buck to produce, + all the labor!! or are they using high tech composition type materials as a substitute??

[daveymac82c]

Hey Tom,

the new Mosquito components are being built the exact same way they were when they were originally built, except that the glues they are using are far superior to the ones used in the 40's.

Here is a link to the guys website:

http://www.mosquitorestoration.com/

Cheers,

David McIntosh

[tom d. friedman]

wow...... super ambitious project!! thanks for the info!!