Murmansk Convoys

[stuart murdoch]

Just wondering if anyone has thought of the number of a/c that were lost on the Murmansk Convoys.
I have been reading an article regarding this, mainly about PQ17 this convoy was a disaster, out of 35 ships, 24 were sunk carrying 210 a/c, that is 210 brand new planes of various types (typically no types listed).

Other convoys were PQ13, 7 ships lost, PQ16 7 ships lost, PQ18 13 ships lost, if the averages are similar to PQ17, there could be another 200+ a/c at the bottom of the Barents Sea, not to mention German a/c shot down or ditched.

Now here's the fun bit, the Barents Sea covers an area of 1,300,00KM, with depths raging from 200 to 500 meters and is cold, very cold, the area of PQ17 sinkings is a rough triangle of Cape Kanin, Novaya Zemla and Hope Island not much of a smaller area to search, but records should show the approximate positions of each ship.

I am not sure, but I think that a/c were carried as deck cargo in crates in some cases, Im sure there must be someone out there who knows.

And I am sure one of you will know where to find the manifests for each ship detailing the cargo.
Over to you guys, thoughts, suggestions? or just tell me to back to the Pub.

Stuart

[agent86]

Dear Stuart,
Not too long ago,I posted a query along the same lines as yours and got no response here or on the flypast board.This is a posibility that I have wondered about for many years.Not only is the sea deep and cold there and low on oxygen.The aircraft were crated,slathered in cosmoline and the engines were pickled with oil in the cylinders and some were cocooned to boot.I personally believe that the potential for well preserved aircraft is very high but I wont know till someone with the bucks agrees with me and goes and finds them.And to all who will try to educate me on the corossiveness of salt water,yes,I know.Salt water = rust. but I believe that- deep,cold, low oxygen water+ cosmoline +crating+ cocoon= potential well preserved airframe!just maybe! Thanks..............Tim

[DaveM2]

The 'Phoenix Foundation' crowd reckon they have the rights to such a ship 'in a lake' ...sounds like 'B.S' to me, along with a lot of their other 'claims'

Dave

[Jeffrey]

The 'Phoenix Foundation' crowd reckon they have the rights to such a ship 'in a lake' ...sounds like 'B.S' to me, along with a lot of their other 'claims'

Dave

what on earth would a ship full of crated airframes be doing in a lake? wouldn't it have been easier to put them on a train or something?

I can't think of anywhere that this might even be reasonabley feasable except for somewhere like the suez canal or somewhere like hamburg where the ships get brought inland.

[DaveM2]

The only thing I can think of is Lake Ladoga , but I assume that they think either the Barrets Sea or the Baltic is 'a lake '

Dave

[O.P.]

You can try here. In the kreigsmarine section. These guys know alot. They might be able to give you U-Boat date, times , and places, of the strikes. If they have that, they might have more detailed convoy info.



http://forum.axishistory.com/

[paulmcmillan]

I read an article recently on the Artic Convoys there was something like 53 ships lost during the war on this route to enemy action

But do no ask me to quote where or when I readi it.. It is just that I was surprised at the figure. I was expecting more......

[stuart murdoch]

Agent 86,

Now I didn't know about the cocoon, cosmoline etc, if that is the case then there would be some interesting remains looking for a good home.

The major problems I see are:-
The depths at which someone will have to search, runs between approx 650 feet and 1,625 feet, definately not diver friendly.
The short window of summer, which is the only time you could think of doing a salvage operation in the Barents sea.
The terrible weather, the fogs and the cold.

Advantages:-
The area has been surveyed by the oil companies, and I'm positive that they would know the location of every wreck, Toolpushers hate to drop a pipe only to find they're trying to munch through a wreck.
Virtually all the wrecks are/were itemised with they're approximate position of sinking.
Each ships manifest must be on record somewhere and accessible.

The low oxygen and salinity of the Barents Sea, I agree would be the conditions ideal for preservation of a/c, especially if they were inhibited as you say.

There are new ideas in the salvage world, one of which I find very interesting and has enormous potential in the recovery busines. I have read an article that a professor has the idea to salvage ships etc from deep waters, by using Liquid Nitrogen, basically the idea is to pump LN into the wreck and allow an iceberg to form, Bob's your Uncle Fanny's your Auntie and the beasty pops to the surface to be towed ashore and melted later.
If this idea is workable it would reduce the amount of equipment required to lift an a/c from deep water and looks like it may be a little cheaper also.
On the face of it, it does look like a simpler way of lifing a/c from depth, basic needs would be a small submarine, a support vessel a semi-submersible Barge and some way of thethering the iceberg to the bottom to ensure it doesn't come up under your butt and ruin your day.

I must say I'm surprised that only two of us have considered this, surely there has to more people who have eyed this potential source, maybe not of a/c that can be rebuilt to fly, but as a source of potential static airframes and a mass of useable parts.

Any thoughts?

Stuart

[dj51d]

I would think the iceberg method would pose a severe risk of damaging the aircraft. Water is a very strange compound, it is at it's most dense at approxamately 39 fahrenheit any warmer or cooler and it begins to expand. If the chilling were to beging inside the aircraft, the ice would cause the aircraft to swell. If the liquid nitrogen were pumped in outside the aircraft(more likely I would think), the aircraft would get crushed like those in the glacier in greenland.

[bdk]

I would think the iceberg method would pose a severe risk of damaging the aircraft.

Also, liquid nitrogen is very cold. Metal becomes very brittle at that temperature. The ship might crack apart, but then again maybe the ice would hold it together? Intersting concept, I'd like to know more. Like how much LN2 is required to raise a ship of the size in question.

[stuart murdoch]

Guys,

I think the iceberg idea has problems, but if done correctly, and it would need a considerable amount of research in how it is done correctly, my feelings it would have to be a progressive injection both inside and around the exterior of the a/c to ensure no distortion of the airframe occurrs.
It might work with ships, but a/c?

Another method would be to inject the airframe with buoyant foam and then use lift bags to raise the a/c from the bottom. The foam method has advantages as it fills voids quickly, displaces water and assists in keeping the integrity of the fuselage shape.

But the question remains, are there a/c there worth looking for? has someone any idea of the numbers and types that were lost, is there an extinct type there that might interest a museum or a collector?

stuart

[stuart murdoch]

Hi Guys,

Rob has dropped a small bombshell on Tim and me, however as the Barents Sea belongs in part to both Russia and Norway, I fail to see where the Russians can file claims with UNESCO claiming ownership of all lend/lease equipment they never received, what the blazes has UNESCO got to do with it?
Now I can understand Russia claiming all wrecks within its territorial waters, and this is probably the case regarding the ship with A20's in shallow water, I would expect that it was inside their territorial waters, so that's that.

But, as the ships were civilian owned and operated the following might apply, I quote:-
" in the case of submerged and sunken vessels, when an owner exists or can be determined, the party who recovers property abandoned is entitled to application of the "law of finds". Under this doctrine, title to abandoned property is given to the person who actually finds and takes possession of the property.
Most cases decided under the law of finds involve property which was lost long ago and which has remained under the sea and beyond the reach of its original owner for many years. In the cas of a "find" the court does not have to set a value because by definition the finder takes title to the property free and clear of all other claims".

(the above only applies to civilian ships, etc.)

Now as the ships were civilian owned, operated and crewed, the only other people who might have an interest in the cargo would be the original insurers of the ship, except under the law of finds.

But, both Norway and Russia still disagree on which part of the Barents Sea belongs to each, so anyone going looking for a/c in this area might have a problem regarding sovereignty of the area they are operating in.

I can see part of Russia's reason for claiming everything, it is the standard shotgun approach when you have lost something and have no idea where it is, use the blanket approach, if I remember correctly Russia was paying in Gold for equipment, at least in the intial stages of lend/lease, so maybe there is a ship out there with a payment that never got through.

But it still doesn't answer my original question, how many a/c were lost, what types were they, and if they could be recovered are they of use, also I would expect a considerable amount of spares would also be on board the ships, would the spares not be worth looking for also?

Stuart

[DaveM2]

A quick search on Google turns up types such as P-39s, P-40, A-20, and Hurricanes. There would no doubt be other types such as B-25s and maybe some Spits. Going on the amount of ships lost I would guess between 1500-2000 aircraft.

Rob..I haven't heard anything about a ship discovered with A-20s aboard, I will put it to my Russian friends. There was however a German supply ship discovered in the Black Sea with several armoured vehicles aboard, some have ben salvaged [ mostly Stug S.P. guns ].

Dave

[stuart murdoch]

Dave,

Took a long look on Google as per your suggestion and turned this up, mind boggling

http://geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/lend.html

you need to scroll about 2/3rds of the way down to find the numbers and value of a/c and parts.

Stuart