WW2 in color- seen this yet?!!!!

Nathan · **Posted:** Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:50 pm

Thank you very much Mike.

Doesn't seem fare to the original owners.

What if someone payed for a photo to be put in a book. Would the copywrite still be with the first owner?

groundpounder · **Posted:** Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:05 pm

you guys are unbelievable! things get carried way too far on this board sometimes. too much time on your hands. :roll:

drgondog · **Joined:** Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:50 am **Posts:** 237

It becomes complicated when one of the 'original' owners tries to sue for copyright infringement - which is why I never remotely considered going after a third party for using one of 'my' originals (inherited from my father who got some from his crew chief and others from the USAAF PRO officer, etc) ...

you get my drift on the 'defense of copyright' issue

There are some very well known photographers such as Cal Sloan who took so many of the 355FG pictures in the Ethell collection. I have several of his slides directly from him. To my knowledge there isn't a copyright/fee issue in using them particularly when the publisher gives accurate credit to the source - as Cal gave his stuff away to any that asked.

I DID notice that the Ethell site always listed the Sloan stuff as 'unknown' - which implies that they were in a pile and not otherwise identified. Jeff certainly knew Cal and always gave Sloan the credit he richly deserved so I was dismayed when I saw the 'Unknown' as the source for the Ethell collection.. but I don't attribute dishonesty -

because at the end of the day the Ethell site could never go after anyone using those photos, who knew the original source and gave credit for them to Sloan.

I got really angry at Kent Miller for much of the stuff he published about the 355th FG and 2SF in his "Fighter Units & Pilots of the 8th Air Force" (a very fine work BTW) that I felt he extracted from Angels, Bulldogs and Dragons - but ONLY because I felt he failed to credit me for the exhaustive research and my own dissemination to other sources that he might have drawn from - not because I felt he infringed on my copyright - just no credit for people that did a lot of his work.

The funny thing is, that had he solicited any advise or help, I could have helped him NOT make so many mistakes that he included when he lifted data from ABD, Steeple Morden Strafers and 355FGA - all of which had my 'older' info.

Net - my feelings were hurt but I couldn't make a case of copyright infringement in a million years. Ditto the Ethell grooup unless one of the original photographers had made it clear the stuff was not to be disseminated or sold w/o express and written permission... other than tha maybe a question of ethics - not law as I understand it?

JDK · **Posted:** Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:02 am

groundpounder wrote:

you guys are unbelievable! things get carried way too far on this board sometimes. too much time on your hands. :roll:

For some of us copyright is the protection to our income from our jobs. So it's to avoid ending up without too much time that some authors and photographers are quite unbending on the issue.

Oh, Nathan, and there's no such thing as 'copywrite' or similar, it's copyright (it's nit-picky, but there's a clear difference in meaning and legal applicability, which is why I mention it.)

Finally, it's often overlooked that copyright law differs depending on the legal system in force - country, time etc.

Regards,

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:38 am

Jack, Did you originally take these photos? Were you there to take them at the military base in WWII or Korea? If not then you or whoever must have obtained them from some other source. Also if you willingly loaned them to Jeff wasn't it with permission, verbal if not written, that he could use them? Or did you just ask him to look at them and return them without reproducing? I may be way too sensitive, but I hate to see critisim direct or implied of Jeff after he's gone. He was a friend for years, without knowing him beyond aviation, I thought he was one if the more kind, decent, and worthwhile people I've met, and his loss stays with me all these years. Not many of us with our family go to a 3rd world country to do volunteer missionary work. He was religeous without being overbearing, he was patriotic without being a war monger. I gave him his first Spitfire flight and he was one of the better pilots I've flown with. I think many people would have been willing to aid his family most any way, I know I sent a small donation to his church. I have heard other people complain about Jeff in other context, but I never heard the same type of thing from him Photo credit should be given, but sometime there are glitches, I sent some with an article requested by DCO (Spits) and gave careful credit info, but the mag wrote courtesy of Bill G. I wrote a correction letter, don't know if it got in. No money was involved, it seems to me ethically not legally, the burden is higher when used for profit. [/list]

Scott Rose · **Posted:** Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:55 am

Just a general warning, this is a touchy subject and one that has reared it's head multiple times. Keep it civil and I'll leave it. If it gets out of hand it's going in the storage hanger.

Jack Cook · **Posted:** Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:31 am

Hi Bill,
I have no issues with Jeff and never had. He too was my friend. I knew him via phone and mail for quite a long while. In fact he called before they filmed the roary glory video so I could be there and again when he came west for his final flight so I was there when he died. This isn't about him. My only beef is with David who states cleary that he (or the estate) doesn't have the copyright of said images. But at the same time will sell one to anyone who wants one for up to $1000 dollars each. Uusally when photos are published the publishers has the person with the images sigh a release stating these are their images, gives permission to use and releases the user of liability. No one I've talked to ever signed anything over to anyone. I wonder if such a thing is done when a magazine makes a purchase today from David to protect themselves. One warbird publisher told me he stays far away from the collection based on the issues of ownership and copyright and ethics.
To answer your other question I have a set of 180 slides taken by a relative while surveying pacific airfields in 1943-44. They were willed to me, I treasure them and don't want them sold to others by a third party looking for a quick buck!
I hope this clears things up for you.

marine air · **Posted:** Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:38 pm

I like all of the parties involved and wish you would keep the WIX forum to warbirds and topics of similar interest. Did you guys tell each and every veteran you made contact with, or their widow, that you were interested in profiteering on their photos and memorabilia? Are you guys giving royalties to the parties that made the history and the photographs? Are you making charitable donations from the income produced from your profiteering? WHat was your role in World War II?
It's like bad-mouthing an engine builder or restoration shop. It's wrong, IMO, to bring such topics up on the WIX.

Jack Cook · **Posted:** Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:13 pm

Quote:

Did you guys tell each and every veteran you made contact with, or their widow, that you were interested in profiteering on their photos and memorabilia?

huh??
That's a pretty rude blanket accusation.
Not knowing which "guys" you're referring too I'll respond for myself.
Any photo I sell is from the National Archives or from my collection-period.

Quote:

Are you making charitable donations from the income produced from your profiteering?

Flying Tigers Association, WWII Memorial, Humane Society, NW Medical Teams and WIX. Does that answer your question?

Chicoartist · **Posted:** Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:56 pm

Well, I know this ... Jack has gone above and beyond for me on more than one occasion. When I expressed an interest in doing a VF-17 piece (coming up next, BTW!), Jack pored over his stuff and sold me copies (I wanted hard copies rather than scans) of many shots for next to nothing. I seriously doubt he made anything but "gas money" on that deal. Result - a piece of historical artwork rightly glorifying some arse-kicking Corsair jocks will be that much accurate for posterity.

I recently finished Twin-tailed Dragons, a 24 x 32 oil which depicts a few Chittagong, India-based 459th Fighter Squadron P-38Js in spring 1944. While this squadron had the absolute coolest markings, they are relatively poorly covered in photographs, unfortunately. Once again, Jack to the rescue. He went through his inventory and sent me a high-rez scan of Irish Lassie, which was piloted by 2Lt. William G. 'Bill' Baumeister Jr. Lt. Baumeister was credited with an "Oscar" damaged on May 23, 1944. Not an ace, but a typical fighter pilot. I jumped at the chance to do Bill's attractive kite. I'd have never heard of the guy or his plane if it weren't for Jack.

Jack, you and Martin, and guys like you don't owe anybody a darn thing in the way of 'explanation'. You are doing a service to history by lovingly collecting and carefully preserving these images. I for one plan on leaning on you guys again to make sure my work is "right".

Wade

Chicoartist · **Posted:** Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:11 pm

I should also throw a shout-out to current jocks like Randy "Hacker" Haskin who not only "do" these things, but are cognizant of their place in history, and how important it is for guys like me who didn't go there to have all the info I can get. Hacker came back from OIF with enough Strike Eagle photo (and video) reference for me (he commissioned Pressing West at FRISCO) that I had absolutely no excuses for any inaccuracies - I literally had the entire jet covered from nose to tail! As I found out from Randy, such attention to 'history' is, relatively speaking, rare among current jocks - in fact, I think Randy's Shangri-La II (named for Gentile's bird) was the ONLY 336 EFS jet to carry a 'throwback' 336 FS (WWII) piece of art.

Thanks to all the hoarders, historians, collectors, photographers and enthusiasts. You can bet there's a good chance I'll be calling upon you at some point . . . where else am I going to go?

Wade

Amado Aguiluz F. · **Posted:** Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:14 pm

A good example of copyright infringement: the attached photo was published today at the Catrachowings forum, with their logo/stamp/marking:

IMG]http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n82/AAF_1945/614vc7.jpg[/IMG]

I must admit that Photoshop is a very fine tool, which unfortunatelly some individuals tend to use for un-ethical purposes.

On October 14, 2006, I posted an unretouched copy of the original at this same forum, in the "Corsairs" thread:

Cheers,

Amado

Amado Aguiluz F. · **Posted:** Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:16 pm

Sorry,

IMG]http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n82/AAF_1945/614vc7.jpg[/IMG]

Amado Aguiluz F. · **Posted:** Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:18 pm

Perhaps now?

jaldo · **Joined:** Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:33 pm **Posts:** 175

Copyright infringiment? Don't make me laugh...
Perhaps you forgot how you also created photos also for un-ethical purposes not long ago? How come you don't mention this in other forums? Maybe because you've been banned from those sites and you're so desperate to get attention.The photo in question belongs to the collection of General Lopez and in his own words said that the photo had been taken by a guy with the last name Molina.HE (Gnal Lopez) also gave permission to Catraho Wings to publish the photo and is actually cooperating with them and providing them with data and photos of his collection,so I don't see why you come crying over here where none of those guys can reply here and the proper credits have been given in the picture,but I understand why you do it since they kicked you out of the Honduras Museum when you were part of the staff.
Grow up,little man..

My apologies to the forum for the off-topic here.
Jaldo

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