A-10 Forever

[Randy Haskin]

Maybe its just a coincidence,but the last time that the USAF said that the A-10's were destined for the junkyard,the Army said that they would fly them.

Suddenly,the USAF decided that maybe they would keep a few A-10's going after all.

The "Roles and Missions" division between the services assures that this could/would not happen. The Army is not allowed to have fixed wing combat aircraft to avoid duplication of roles. This line was drawn in the 70s after the OV-1 went away and would literally take Congressional and SecDEF order to make it happen.

Call me crazy, but I've often wondered why the Marines don't use the A-10 in their inventory. It fits right in with their role and would probably do a better close air support role than say...the Harrier.

Same roles-and-missions argument.

The Marines and Navy get to have them because of the need/capability to operate off a carrier. This is why they don't have any fixed-wing combat aircraft that can't be flown off a boat. The Hog isn't able to be flown from a boat.

So...the long and the short of it, although it may have sounded like the AF started liking the A-10 because the Army threatened to take it away, that was never a real possibility.

[Randy Haskin]

But nothing else can rival it, except perhaps the Su 25 Frogfoot

How about the Piper Enforcer?

The Piper Enforcer is as much a rival to the A-10 as a NASCAR racer is a rival to an F1 car. Similar, but also very different in important ways.

That's not to say that the Enforcer wasn't (or couldn't have been) a capable aircraft in its own right...but it was never in any danger of stealing away the A-10's spot in the Air Force.

It would be interesting if the Enforcer had been adopted by the Air Force. After the test program in the 1980s there were many significant changes that were going to be made to the design that would have made it a good (in my opinion) COIN aircraft....one that would be VERY relevant in Iraq right about now.

[Django]

Learn something new everyday... Very cool on the Enforcer. I just googled it and I dig it!

[Ztex]

The Hog isn't able to be flown from a boat

Interesting discussion...
I found this little blurb...http://www.g2mil.com/Carriers.htm
and .... http://www.combatreform.com/aircommandos.htm

Modifications for a Marine Corps A-10 "Sea Hog" should only require folding wings, a tail hook, and a catapult attachment point....The A-10 uses the same TF34-GE turbofan non-afterburning engine as the Navy S-3 carrier aircraft now used primarily as refuelers. The A-10s straight wings allow slower flight, making them ideal for carrier operations. The heavily armored A-10 was built to operate from primitive airfields, so it already has strengthen landing gear.

These "Sea Hogs" should cost only around $20 million dollars to overhaul and modernize, compared to around $80 million for each new JSF-STOVL. The Corps would still need 300 JSF-STOVL to replace its AV-8B Harriers and the other three active and three reserve F/A-18 squadrons, unless more A-10s are absorbed as the Air Force begins to retire more A-10s in 2018. A squadron of Marine Corps A-10 "Sea Hogs" can provide each Navy CAW with new capabilities to engage ground forces with a custom built attack aircraft, while saving almost $2 billion in future procurement costs.

Sounds doable...

[Larry Kraus]

I'm aware of the "Roles and Missions" division,having been in the Army at about the time that the USAF took away the Army's Caribous and the OV-1's were disarmed.

I just thought that it was an interesting coincidence that the Army offered to fly the A-10 if the USAF decided to send them all to the boneyard as the A-10 has no rivals in the West in its intended mission.

It is also interesting to watch the developements in the current U.S.Army/Air Force Joint Cargo Aircraft (JCA) program.This is supposed to replace the Army hand-me-down Sherpas,among other things.

The major diagreements seem to involve maintenance responsibilties and numbers and size of the aircraft that will go to each service.

[Scott Rose]

The F-16 is good at what it does... But in CAS you can down one with flyswatter

[TimAPNY]

The F-16 unit in NY turned in the A-10 for F-16 a few years before the Gulf war 1, They gave them some 30mm gun pods for ground attack. I think they were one of the first units to try this out. They were deployed for Round 1. After that the whole idea of F-16s replacing the hog seemed to drop off the radar completely, or at least I never heard it breathed again. I always interpreted that project as a failure because of it dropping out of view so quickly.

Can anyone confirm that?

But the idea of a Sea Hog, I like That!

Tim

[Paul Krumrei]

Special Operations - USAFSOF -

EOD specialist.

[Randy Haskin]

The F-16 unit in NY turned in the A-10 for F-16 a few years before the Gulf war 1, They gave them some 30mm gun pods for ground attack. I think they were one of the first units to try this out. They were deployed for Round 1. After that the whole idea of F-16s replacing the hog seemed to drop off the radar completely, or at least I never heard it breathed again. I always interpreted that project as a failure because of it dropping out of view so quickly.

Yes, the F/A-16 was a MASSIVE failure due to two reasons; one, the gun pod they mounted vibrated so severely when shot that it was impossible to keep it zeroed...making it effectively useless. Second, the Viper's speed worked against it...when it was flying at a safe airspeed it was too fast to do the down-n-dirty work.

[TheFlash]

Was just reading the latest issue of Aviation Week (Aviation Leak) and lo and behold, there was a one-page advertisement for the A-10C.

If any of you get AW, check out the latest issue for the ad.
Cool!

Long live the A-10s!!!


Regards,
Mike

[marine air]

Topic 1;, Yeah, a navalized A-10 would have been perfect for the Marines, I don't know about carrier elevator sizes, and hangar deck height restrictions? The A-10 is a really big bird.
Topic 2; Next time I see Reg Urschler flying the CAF P-51 "Gunfighter" at an airshow I hope to ask him about the PA-48 Enforcer program. He is unique in that he was a real COl. and then Brigadier General,in the USAF and was flying airshows in the P-51 while the PA-48 program was around.
My recollection was that the PA-48 was a Pentagon General's "pet program" as most of the Brass in the 80's were WWII and Korea vets and had flown the P-51 at one time or another. I think they threw a couple million bucks at the program to take it out of limbo, flight test the birds, and kill the program. It never had a real chance of making production.
This was at the time when Reagan was trying to break the back of the Soviet's military might and they approved virtually everything they could find for some level of funding, even bringing the WWII Iowa and Missouri battleships back into commission!

[Randy Haskin]

My recollection was that the PA-48 was a Pentagon General's "pet program" as most of the Brass in the 80's were WWII and Korea vets and had flown the P-51 at one time or another. I think they threw a couple million bucks at the program to take it out of limbo, flight test the birds, and kill the program. It never had a real chance of making production.

Not so much.

There is a LOT more to the story than can be told in one forum post, but here's the basic outline.

Dave Lindsay, the guy who built Cavalier Mustangs in the 60s, developed the original Piper Enforcer circa 1970. He built two of them with his own $, and they flew in a USAF test program called "Pave COIN".

Right about the time Pave COIN happened, the bottom dropped out on funding to send counter-insurgency aircraft to Asia as part of Vietnamization...so the original Enforcer program dropped out of sight as far as the USAF was concerned.

Lindsay, on the other hand, lobbied Congress for the greater part of 8 years trying to get someone to buy the Enforcer. The problem is that NOBODY in the military really wanted it, and the Air Force REALLY did not want it -- they were wrapped up in buying F-15s, F-16s, and A-10s.

Finally, in 1979 Congress earmarked $11 million for the USAF to test the Enforcer. The AF blatantly stated that they weren't gonna buy it, but Congress essentially forced them to test fly it.

With the $11 mil, Piper built two new aircraft (called PA-48s) which flew tests in 1983 and 1984. No USAF pilot ever flew the PA-48, and Piper test pilots instead flew all the tests.

At the end of the tests, as expected, the USAF said they didn't want it...and that was that.

[Eric Friedebach]

But nothing else can rival it, except perhaps the Su 25 Frogfoot

How about the Piper Enforcer?

The Piper Enforcer is as much a rival to the A-10 as a NASCAR racer is a rival to an F1 car. Similar, but also very different in important ways.

That's not to say that the Enforcer wasn't (or couldn't have been) a capable aircraft in its own right...but it was never in any danger of stealing away the A-10's spot in the Air Force.

It would be interesting if the Enforcer had been adopted by the Air Force. After the test program in the 1980s there were many significant changes that were going to be made to the design that would have made it a good (in my opinion) COIN aircraft....one that would be VERY relevant in Iraq right about now.

I’ve always been fascinated by the Piper Enforcer, or any other design that lasts through several generations. Piper offered factory tours of the Lakeland facility during Sun N Fun in the 80’s. I don’t know if the PA-48 would’ve been viewable, but I’m still kicking myself that I didn’t take an afternoon to go over there. Interesting thread here.

Back to the subject at hand – does anyone remember the cartoon that appeared in EAA Warbirds magazine a long time ago? It suggested a modification program for the A-10, which ultimately turned it into a B-25. Funny!

[TheFlash]

For those interested, this is from the August 21/28, 2006 Aviation Week and Space Technology - page 20:



Great news for us Warthog fans!!!

Regards,
Mike

[Originalboxcar]

Thank Mike for the scan!

So it appears that the USAF is not putting all of its attack eggs in one basket w/the F-22A!

Hill units upgrade ‘Warthogs’ [A-10A Modification to A-10C]
Hilltop Times ^ | 8/17/2006 | G. A. Volb


At first glance the A-10 cockpit looks like a category five tornado just touched down in the middle of it. The chaotic scene – hundreds of loose wires and instrumentation ripped from consoles –is really the beginning of modifications that will extend the service life of the “Warthogs” while increasing their capabilities.

Better known as the Precision Engagement Program, it’s designed to facilitate the use of smart munitions and update the cockpit so it’s more in line with that of its F-16 brethren. Hill’s 508th Aircraft Sustainment Wing and 309th Aircraft Maintenance Group are leading the charge this year — the PE program one of several scheduled for the aircraft to bring it into the 21st Century. The 508th’s Aircraft Sustainment Squadron ensures Air Combat Command requirements regarding the jets are met.

“We work with the contractor to develop hardware and software to meet those requirements,” said Capt. Michael Ballak, deputy chief for the A-10 Precision Engagement Program at the 508th’s sustainment squadron. “The end product is a modification kit that is delivered to the 309th for installation on the aircraft.”

And that’s where the 309th begins the blue-collar work of putting elbow grease into the aircraft.

“The PE work consists of a huge electrical modification which involves updating the cockpit with new avionics and software, giving pilots greater battlefield awareness,” said Robin Ritch, PE section chief for the 309th AMXG. “This means removing some 1,700 wires and replacing them with 14,000 feet of new wire.” Hence the disaster that is a cockpit in transition.

Once completed, the aircraft will include 10 new components, while another 12 will be upgraded. “We’ll add a hands-on-throttle-and-stick feature, plus integrate the targeting pods,” said Ms. Ritch. “The litening pod currently uses only a Maverick missile interface that provides limited functionality. The PE modification provides integration of the Litening and Sniper XR targeting pods.” A team of Hill civilians and contractors from L3 Communications are making it happen. “Currently, we have around 150 mechanics performing the modifications comprised of civilians here at Hill and contractors from L3 Communications,” said Ritch. “They’re specialists in electrical systems, sheet metal, general aircraft mechanics and fuels. We also have some other units supporting the work including the pylon, commodities, avionics and flight test shops.” Specifically, the aircraft will be turned over to customers with expanded smart munitions ability – for guided bombs and other smart weapons; two multi-functional color cockpit displays; enhanced target identification and designation; wind-corrected munitions dispenser; and double the DC power, giving it the ability to climb higher and faster.

“The A-10 squadron will produce 93 aircraft in fiscal year ’07,” said Rick Merrill, 571st Aircraft Maintenance Squadron A-10 production chief. “The work will include the Precision Engagement Program, plus Service Life Extension Program and Plastic Media Blast (a corrosion control program). All will be sent back to A-10 combat units stationed world wide.”

The PE portion takes 90-days from wheels down to wheels up. But it’s a timeline that will see marked reductions following the team’s efforts in Leaning the process.

“Lean will provide some major improvements in the process,” said Mr. Merrill. “It’ll bring all of the resources to those performing the work. It means technicians no longer are required to conduct search missions for parts, tooling, kits or anything else required to produce the aircraft. Bottom line is we’ll be returning an aircraft that’s better able to support the war fighter on the ground and in the air.”

“The teamwork between the two units has been outstanding,” said Captain Ballak. “No one organization can execute a successful modification alone. It takes a total team effort to pull off a modification of this size.”


The newly designed A-10C “Warthog” made its first flight at Eglin Air Force Base Jan. 20.

Regards,

t~