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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2023 2:09 pm 
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I was trying to think of how many surviving examples of advanced World War II electronics and munitions are still around. To explain, the "advanced" qualifier was included to eliminate run-of-the-mill radios such as the BC-342 or ARC-5. It is also meant to point to the fact that most of these were late war designs.

For example, what initially started my thoughts on the subject was the APS-4 under-wing pod I ran into at Pima a few years ago. For some reason there are a lot of them out there:

On the other hand, a quick search turned up no surviving examples of the APS-6 radar that mounted on the leading edge of F6F wings or the nose of P-38Ms.

As far as the bigger radars go, an APS-20 exists at the Science and Industry Museum in Manchester and there's an SCR-720 night fighter radar at the National Electronics Museum.

Given that most of this equipment would have been removed by civilians who had no use for dead weight in their warbirds, I figure much of it did not survive - at least not in the aircraft themselves. If any of the electronics exist, it would most likely be thanks to amateur radio enthusiasts who picked it up surplus on the cheap. (There are, of course some aircraft in museums, the Enola Gay is a good example, that still have their original equipment, but even that is can be rare until you get to the Cold War era aircraft.) For that same reason, I don't know of many warbirds flying that have had the original equipment reinstalled. For example, the Mid-Atlantic Air Museum's P-61 has an SCR-720 and the Commemorative Air Force was looking for an SCR-717 Pathfinder radome to mount on That's All Brother. They apparently were able to make an aluminum reproduction of the radome, but I doubt there's complete set inside.

The other half of the question - munitions - is about equipment like the SWOD (aka the ASM-N-2 Bat), of which there are seven examples still remaining at places like the National Institute of Standards and Technology and, again, the Pima Air & Space Museum. This interest was the result of seeing whether it would be possible to find examples to study to recreate examples of the Tiny Tim rocket or GT-1 for the Tri-State Warbird Museum's FG-1 and B-25 respectively. (As to why, the aircraft log books for BuNo 92132 include a comment that it carried a Tiny Tim on at least one flight and the GT-1 was made by Aeronca, which was of course a local company.) Unfortunately, there are no surviving GT-1s and I have yet to come across any technical manuals or blueprints for it. Luckily, there is at least one surviving Tiny Tim at the National Air and Space Museum.

I'm sure there are more out there, so please feel free to make suggestions as to what I missed.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2023 5:42 pm 
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Not sure if this qualifies, The bomb shape drop testing in Wendover was mostly complete units (sans nuclear material) and the Wendover museum has AN/APS-13 units that were included on the atomic bomb test shapes. We have some intact examples as well as the smashed pieces of a few that have been recovered from impact sites.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:14 am 
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To start at the top of the scale, there are still five 22,000 lb Grand Slam bombs in existence in the UK, presumably, and hopefully, all inert.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_(bomb)


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2023 7:53 am 
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Qualifier- I am not a radio or electronics expert. I couldn't discuss radio theory with you, and am unable to operate the remote control on my TV on a regular basis.

Along the way of dealing in warbird parts, I have learned a lot. I did purchase 5000 lbs of vintage aviation radios from an estate a number of years ago, and in the mix, there were only a few items of advanced electronics/avionics in the pile. This collection had been amassed by a collector who also helped outfit restorations for various warbird restorers. I believe the collection was representative of an exceptional electronic historian, and was what he could find when he had the opportunity. I will describe what I found in the pile.

By weight, the advanced items were less than 5% of the pile, but were all interesting. The one neat item I had was the pilot's indicator for the SCR-720 radar, which was basically a long cathode ray tube in a box with stadia lines on the face plate. This was what the pilot used for radar intercept once the radar operator got him into proximity of the target. The other items included a number of SCR-515 (early IFF) radio sets which were brand new. Initially excited about having IFF, I was disappointed to find that they were basically built for use and were never used extensively, so they are very common. But the exciting piece in the pile was a real BC 966- this was the IFF receiver used as part of the SCR 595/695 (USN nomenclature ABK-1,2,3,4,5) IFF set in WWII and the control box for. Aside from that, there were BC-608 contactors (part of the British "Pipsqueak") IFF used with SCR-274 (USN ARC-5) sets. The BC-608 was a windable clock which sent out a transmitter pulse every few seconds. One of those is now in a prominent restoration. The set I kept was the receiver/transmitter set BC-729, which was the aircraft component of the Eureka/Rebecca pathfinder radios used at D-Day.

A few years later, I purchased separately some ARQ radios. These were countermeasure (jammers) used in WWII. One came from a flea market in PA, missing its large cathode ray tube. I purchased another ARQ set (unknown SCR/BC number) which was another late-war jammer set. Basically, these were "scanners" which looked for radar or intercept frequencies, and when the set "heard" transmissions, it would transmit static on the channels to jam radar and voice transmissions. This was all put in place during WWII and operational by the end of the war, even though we think of it as later in development.

Again, I am not an expert. But what I am saying by all this is that I believe that this upper echelon radio stuff (radar, IFF, countermeasures) is rare, unusual, and hard to find. The ham operators after WWII cannibalized these components for parts to build their R/T sets (I found a set of instructions on how to turn pieces of an SCR515 into a base station) because the specialized stuff was worthless due to the rapid development of successor radios. Also, I was told by an old ham that a number of the jammers had some quantities of precious metals in them; even if not true, this didn't lend itself to preservation of rare radio sets by "treasure hunters" starting out with the premise, "Let's see if there's any gold inside!"

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http://www.forgottenfield.com/amg/instrument/radio/

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2023 7:58 am 
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One other shameless plug

https://www.radionerds.com/

This was how I went from basically zero knowledge to what I know today about radios and componentry.

One very useful piece of this site is nearly at the bottom of the front page, which is tabulated list of radio components by prefix (SCR, MT, BC). I used it extensively to identify what was in my 5000lb pile.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2023 9:27 pm 
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wendovertom wrote:
Not sure if this qualifies, The bomb shape drop testing in Wendover was mostly complete units (sans nuclear material) and the Wendover museum has AN/APS-13 units that were included on the atomic bomb test shapes. We have some intact examples as well as the smashed pieces of a few that have been recovered from impact sites.

Tom P.


Tom, any idea how many Fat Man, Little Boy and Thin Man shapes were dropped near Wendover? Any idea why some were dropped near Wendover and some where dropped down by the Salton Sea?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2023 4:25 pm 
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sandiego89 wrote:
wendovertom wrote:
Not sure if this qualifies, The bomb shape drop testing in Wendover was mostly complete units (sans nuclear material) and the Wendover museum has AN/APS-13 units that were included on the atomic bomb test shapes. We have some intact examples as well as the smashed pieces of a few that have been recovered from impact sites.

Tom P.


Tom, any idea how many Fat Man, Little Boy and Thin Man shapes were dropped near Wendover? Any idea why some were dropped near Wendover and some where dropped down by the Salton Sea?


Yes! About 155 test shapes were dropped between the Wendover range and the Salton Sea range. The 393rd Bombardment Squadron dropped quite a few but the 216th Base Unit "Special" flight crews dropped the majority of them.

As to why, partially navigation and flight timing was the reason for the Salton sea drops. In Wendover, three main reasons were the object of the test drops. First, compiling drop tables for these huge bombs. Second, testing the accuracy of the barometric/radar system detonators. This required a visual observer on the ground. The dummy shapes were loaded with black powder to produce a visible "poof" when the systems activated the "detonation". Interestingly the Nagasaki mission was only approved after a fully successful test of a dummy bomb was confirmed in Wendover on August 7th. Third, recovery of dropped test shapes to physically see if the safety mechanism (in Little Boy) had actually held the dummy uranium components apart. Some accounts say they modified a commercial coal loader to help dig out the buried little boy shapes out of the Utah range ground.

Tom P.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2023 3:18 pm 
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Here is an example of what the AN/APS-13 units look like that we have along with a photo of the units installed in a "Fat Man" weapon.
ImageIMG_20231002_172749
ImageIMG_20231002_172742
ImageIMG_20231002_172732
ImagePXL_20231003_201045258

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 6:01 am 
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There's at least one "Upkeep" bouncing bomb still in existence, on display at the Yorkshire Air Museum at Elvington.

It's some years since I've seen it but I believe it was recovered from the Thames Estuary, off Reculver where some of the testing took place.

Definitely advanced but as it turned out, a dead end.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 12:59 am 
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With all of the research into the Albatross I have been doing recently, it seems like the subject of electronic equipment keeps coming up. As if it wasn't already the most confusing aircraft in the world to research given all of its permutations (and resultant designations), the amount of systems that were packed into the airplane only makes it worse. So, to go on a little bit of a tangent, I wanted to see how many wartime and immediate postwar avionics manuals I could find and if I could compile them into a list for useful reference. Below is the result:

Digitized

References
  • AN-08-10-186 - Handbook of Operating Instructions for *AN/APN-1 and *AN/APN-1A Aircraft Radio Altimeter Equipments[1]
  • AN 08-10-265 - Handbook of Operating Instructions for Radio Sets *AN/APN-1, *AN/APN-1A, *AN/APN-1B and AN/APN-1X (Aircraft Radio Altimeter Equipment)[2]
  • AN 08-30AIA1-2 - Handbook of Maintenance Instructions for Interphone Equipment AN/AIA-1A[3]
  • AN 08-30APN3-2 - Handbook of Operating Instructions for Radio Set AN/APN-3[4]
  • AN 08-30APN4-2 - Handbook of Operating Instructions for Radio Set *AN/APN-4[5]
  • AN 08-30APQ7-2 - Handbook of Operating Instructions for Radar Set *AN/APQ-7[6]
  • AN 08-30APQ13-2 - Handbook of Operating Instructions for Radio Set AN/APQ-13[7]
  • AN 08-30APQ15-2 - Handbook of Operating Instructions for Radio Set AN/APQ-15[8]
  • AN 08-30APQ2-3 - Handbook of Maintenance Instructions for Radar Receiving Equipment AN/APR-2[9]
  • AN 08-30APR4-2 - Handbook of Operating Instructions for Receiving Equipment AN/APR-4[10]
  • AN 08-30APR5-2 - Handbook of Operating Instructions for Radar Sets AN/APR-5 (XA-1), AN/APR-5AY, and AN/APR-5A[11]
  • AN 08-30APS10-2 - Handbook of Operating Instructions for Radio Set AN/APS-10[12]
  • AN 08-30APS13-2 - Handbook of Operating Instructions for Radio Set AN/APS-13[13][14]
  • AN 08-30ARN5-2 - Handbook of Operating Instructions for Radio Receiving Equipments AN/ARN-5 and AN/ARN-5A[15]
  • AN 16-30AIC2-2 - Handbook, Operating Instructions: Interphone Equipment AN/AIC-2 and AN/AIC-2A[16]
  • AN 16-30AIC3-2 - Handbook of Operating Instructions for Interphone Equipment AN/AIC-3[17]
  • AN-16-30APN4-3 - Handbook of Maintenance Instructions for *AN/APN-4[18]
  • AN 16-30ARN5-2 - Handbook, Operation and Service Instructions: Radio Receiving Equipments AN/ARN-5 and AN/ARN-5A[19]
  • AN 16-30ARN14-3 - Handbook, Operating Instructions: Radio Receiver AN/ARN-14[20]
  • AN 16-30ARN14-6 - Handbook, Operating Instructions: Radio Receiving Set AN/ARN-14 and Radio Receiving Set AN/ARN-14C[21]
  • NAVAER 08-5Q-95 - Handbook of Operating Instructions for Model AN/ARC-5 Aircraft Radio Equipment[22]
  • NAVWEPS 16-30ARN14-8 - Illustrated Parts Breakdown: Radio Receiving Set AN/ARN-14B and Radio Receiving Set AN/ARN-14C[23]
  • NAVWEPS 16-35R541-2 - Handbook, Field Maintenance Instructions: Radio Receiving Set AN/ARN-14, AN/ARN-14B, AN/ARN-14D[24]
  • T.O. 08-55-42 - Radio, Radar and Electronics Spare Parts List for AN/AIC-2[25]

A few notes:
  • The cutoff date for inclusion in this list is 1960.
  • Manuals may be repeated if they appear under a different designation.
  • Original printed designations are used, even where they have been struck out and a new handwritten one added.
  • It seems as though the Navy simply added "50" to the beginning of the existing subject title (aka the third part) when creating its own system.
  • A similar effort is posted on the Radio Nerds website. The manuals List of Technical Publications, Communications Equipment, T.O. 16-1-01, and Manual of Test Equipment for Airborne Electrical and Electronic Equipment, NAVAER 08-SS-78, are also useful.
  • The National Electronics Museum has a significant collection of manuals in their library and archive.

EDIT (25-04-28): Added 23 digitized entries and an additional useful manual to notes. Removed 1 duplicate manual.


Attachments:
File comment: 1 Steve Ginter, Grumman HU-16 Albatross, Naval Fighters 11 (Simi Valley, California: Steve Ginter, 1984), 3.

2 Technical Manual, Organizational Maintenance, General Aircraft: USAF Models HU-16A, HU-16B Aircraft, T.O. 1U-16(H)A-2-1, 28 March 1967, 9-1–9-4. Relevant pages noted as last changed on 1 October 1963.

3 Steve Ginter, Grumman HU-16 Albatross, Naval Fighters 11 (Simi Valley, California: Steve Ginter, 1984), 5.

Albatross Avonics List (Reduced).png
Albatross Avonics List (Reduced).png [ 294.48 KiB | Viewed 1751 times ]

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Last edited by Noha307 on Mon Apr 28, 2025 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 2:15 pm 
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If anyone is interested in actual hardware, not manuals...

A friend is restoring a PBY to flight. It is an extremely original and complete aircraft, having never been modified as a tanker. As such, it has all its operational equipment, radios and radar.

Now to fly the aircraft as a warbird means weight and simplicity are important.
Also, there is the safety issue. I'm no A&P, but I'm sure you don't want a bunch of hot 80 year old wires in a flying aircraft.

So...
- gut the avionics boxes, leaving just the cases in place while removing lots of wires and tubes?
I think the owner would like to run some power to the boxes so they light up as original.

If so, what to do with the same electrical innards?

The owner has no idea how rare any of this stuff is other than the previous long time owner/restorer has said there is equipment in there the Navy museum does not have in their PBY.
I'm sure he'd hate to throw anything out that is rare or historic.

This issue is somewhat unique...a ME warbird with lots of period electronics is diferent thsn a Mustang or even a C-47...which has spent decades in civil use.

Is there a consensus from within the warbird "community" as what to do in these situations?
I have a hunch this question might be better asked of an experienced restored and operator.
Anyone know what they did with "Doc"?
Or were all the obsolete military avionics & electronics gone when it was recovered from China Lake?[

Let me reiterate, NO decisions have been made regarding the equipment, whether it will be removed or the disposition of any internal bits. Just asking the question which will need to be addressed eventually as the aircraft is restored

I'll be happy to pass on any suggestions or requests.

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Last edited by JohnB on Mon Apr 28, 2025 9:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 10:33 pm 
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For the sake of diplomacy, I will withhold my opinion on the wisdom of such a decision. However, if the owner insists on such a course of action, the National Electronics Museum might be worth contacting. They have a number of displays showing the internals of electronic equipment. Alternatively, if they're looking for a place a little bit closer to home, the Pacific Northwest Naval Air Museum is restoring a PBY to static display condition and may be able to use them.

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