T-28 crash in Hungary, 10/9/2023

[Mark Allen M]

Anyone that knows Dave Hadfield, or knows of Dave and/or his brother, know that you would get anything but silly comments when it comes to airshow performances and an aviation safety issues.

[DH82EH]

Anyone that knows Dave Hadfield, or knows of Dave and/or his brother, know that you would get anything but silly comments when it comes to airshow performances and an aviation safety issues.

I worked with Dave on a project this summer. Absolutely can confirm Mark.

[Xray]

Anyone that knows Dave Hadfield, or knows of Dave and/or his brother, know that you would get anything but silly comments when it comes to airshow performances and an aviation safety issues.

Ok, statistically, and as a spectator, you are more likely to be injured or killed by a performing aircraft at an airshow:

A] Inside the base
Or
B] Outside the base ?

[k5083]

There's no overstating the esteem in which Dave is held on this forum. This may not have been his greatest take. But the response was unnecessarily rude.

I'm not sure there has ever been a fatality among nonpaying spectators around the airport, as opposed to people off-airport minding their own business.

However, in theory, the nonpaying spectators can place themselves in the direct line of flight and momentum of the displaying aircraft. This is something that is now avoided with the paying crowds, following some tragic lessons.

It would not surprise me if Dave, as a display pilot, has had occasion to see groups of nonpaying spectators in locations where his aircraft might well end up if he had a problem, and been bothered by it.

August

[RyanShort1]

that was the plane stalling, at that point the pilot was no longer in control and was just along for the ride.

I don't agree. That appeared like a deliberate use of the controls.

Also, I generally agree with Dave. Airshows are very intentional about safety zones and boxes, with good reasons. It's one thing for a grown adult spotter with a camera to be in a risky location. I know, I've been literally on the runway side with the approved crew, but we know the risks we are taking. That was a nightmare video, and a nightmare situation, both with the ineptitude of the display, and with the awful place to have the kids. It's almost as bad as people deliberately building a brand new house right on the centerline of an airport that's been around for 60+ years.

[Matt Gunsch]

that was the plane stalling, at that point the pilot was no longer in control and was just along for the ride.

I don't agree. That appeared like a deliberate use of the controls.

If you had seen the video of Harry Tope when he went in, the plane did exactly the same thing, it does not take much when the conditions are right to stall the plane and become a passenger.

[RyanShort1]

that was the plane stalling, at that point the pilot was no longer in control and was just along for the ride.

I don't agree. That appeared like a deliberate use of the controls.

If you had seen the video of Harry Tope when he went in, the plane did exactly the same thing, it does not take much when the conditions are right to stall the plane and become a passenger.

Could be. You can definitely stall an airplane in any attitude relative to the horizon, and it he went harder deflection to the left and pulled, it would make sense for the right wing to stall, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a last second choice, either. It's not like those vehicles weren't in the field of view.

[Xray]

There's no overstating the esteem in which Dave is held on this forum. This may not have been his greatest take. But the response was unnecessarily rude.

I'm not sure there has ever been a fatality among nonpaying spectators around the airport, as opposed to people off-airport minding their own business.

However, in theory, the nonpaying spectators can place themselves in the direct line of flight and momentum of the displaying aircraft. This is something that is now avoided with the paying crowds, following some tragic lessons.

It would not surprise me if Dave, as a display pilot, has had occasion to see groups of nonpaying spectators in locations where his aircraft might well end up if he had a problem, and been bothered by it.

August

Ok I digress, didn't quite like the theory that cheapskate parents are responsible for the deaths of their children by not going on base - We have seen in Germany and Reno that bad things can happen on base, so that theory is invalid IMO.
If a crash occurs you may be no safer sitting down than standing up, on base of off though of course, makes great sense to keep flight paths away from crowds.
I've thankfully only seen 1 fatal crash, a T-33 in 1994, smashed into the runway parallel to the crowd line.
[If I recall correctly, there were multiple fatalities of off base spectators in England a decade or so ago, don't think it was a Vulcan but something of that vintage]

[RyanShort1]

[If I recall correctly, there were multiple fatalities of off base spectators in England a decade or so ago, don't think it was a Vulcan but something of that vintage]

Hawker Hunter

[Hooligan2]

The 11 people who died when the Hunter crashed at Shoreham were mostly road users though several off airfield spectators were killed. My understanding is that there were some lucky people in a field at Fairford when the MiG 29s collided there in 1993 and again at Duxford in 2003 when the Firefly crashed outside the airfield. Biggin Hill 1980, loads of spectators off the airfield when Don Bullock crashed the Invader, luckily not where he and his passengers came down though some were in the same field.

I used to go to Biggin Hill airshows both days, pay to go in the first and stay outside for the second but away from the end of the runway and the display line - once saw a SAAB Supporter stall turn right over the road, any fluff of the recovery could have ended up amongst the many people gathered there.

[Xray]

The 11 people who died when the Hunter crashed at Shoreham were mostly road users though several off airfield spectators were killed. My understanding is that there were some lucky people in a field at Fairford when the MiG 29s collided there in 1993 and again at Duxford in 2003 when the Firefly crashed outside the airfield. Biggin Hill 1980, loads of spectators off the airfield when Don Bullock crashed the Invader, luckily not where he and his passengers came down though some were in the same field.

I used to go to Biggin Hill airshows both days, pay to go in the first and stay outside for the second but away from the end of the runway and the display line - once saw a SAAB Supporter stall turn right over the road, any fluff of the recovery could have ended up amongst the many people gathered there.

I have seen some real close runway footage from Fairford, with dozens of spectators crowded around.
I used to do that but was cured when a USMC Phantom ripped about 15ft over my head on takeoff, was in my estimation dangerously low and struggling to get airborne. Knocked me and others on our asses and singed the hair off my arms, after that I decided to hang a bit to the side.
Don't think its any safer per se but I like the profile view better anyhow, and less a possible distraction for pilots. Close runway access like this is most often not an option anymore at airshows, with cops closing off roadways at both ends, especially when premium jet teams fly.
But as the recent Mig crash illustrates, you don't need to be right in line with the runway to be in danger, anywhere in the show box is a potential crash spot.

[Xray]

darn another one

Horrifying moment Italian airforce display jet plunges from the sky and crashes into a car killing five-year-old girl following bird strike

MB339 fighter can be seen falling from the sky before crashing to the ground

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... trike.html

[Hooligan2]

Frecce Tricolori MB-339 lost power during formation take off at Turin for a display elsewhere. Possible birdstrije has been suggested.

[Dave Hadfield]

I've seen people parked under the runway flight-path, at the airport fence, more times than I can count. It always makes me wince.

Aircraft can crash anywhere, of course. But the greatest-risk flying to do with Airshows is performed within the Display Box. And that airshow crowd is protected as much as possible by the way the display routines are designed and approved by the Airboss and regulatory authorities, and flown by the pilots. There are severe Do's and Don'ts. The people beyond the Box are not protected in any way.

You know, to answer this in a fact-based way, and support it with images from my helmet-cams, requires an article. I'll write one, post it on my website, and link it here as soon as I get a chance.

I did a similar thing after the B-17/P-63 collision last year. http://hadfield.ca/how-airshows-are-run/

Dave