11/12/2022 - Texas Raiders and P-63 King Cobra collide

[dbrown]

Such sad news. God speed to the six members and prayers to the immediate and CAF family members

Attachments

[Xray]

This is more of a head-on video. https://twitter.com/JasonWhitely/status ... 1798668291

Opinion - P63 was watching/following Lead P-51 (seen briefly, far right) and never saw B-17. Sad day for all.

This is not meant to incite an argument or start questioning or building opinions...but I am genuinely curious (as I have no knowledge here) but aren't there briefings on looping patterns and tower control for these shows or is it more flexible?

Separation & situational awareness are obviously high priorities at large warbird gatherings like this, something went amuck and speculation is pointless at this time.

I have seen "flexible" shows when I was a kid, including shows with no tower control at all, in fact no tower present. This could not have been one of those, with major performers at a large city airfield. Typically, tower hands off control to an "airboss" when showtime starts, who uses his own frequency to control the aircraft, and has complete operational control over all performing aircraft for the entire duration of the show from takeoff to landing. These "bosses" actually travel the country controlling shows, not sure how many of them there are but I would guess the numbers are low.
Traffic can easily be monitored on a scanner, I have been listening in for years at shows. Never thought about it but I presume the airboss concept was/is to use guys to control this highly specialized and unique airflow, as an average air controller would not be well versed controlling a dozen or more aircraft making continuous passes. Also minimizes potential for miscommunications since they are all on a single control frequency. [The only exceptions to airboss control are demo teams like the Blue Angels. They use their own controller, and you can hear them hand off and hand back control during the progression of shows] When the last performer lands and the show is over, airboss hands airspace control back to the tower, and the formerly very active airboss frequency goes dead.

Very skilled and experienced, but not perfect, I have heard them get overwhelmed and make mistakes. No one would have had a better technical overview into what went wrong here than the airboss, and his input will be critical to the investigation.

Thank you, and again no intention on my post to start speculation, after 30+ years of going to shows it is nice to finally have some insight into the actual process as it is something that I have never dug into.[/quote]


Absolutely, I think everyone is tempted to theorize and assign blame and causes, but realize it would be pointless and tasteless so early on.
I'll say only this - I think it won't be difficult for the experts to lay out the causes for this, and likely already know by now [unless there were mechanical issues that we are unaware of].

I am not an aviation professional BTW, pilot, controller, anything like that.
Just a long time aviation enthusiast who has attended many, many airshows over the decades, and do have insight into the inner workings of these shows due to monitoring them for so long ,, But I stand ready to be corrected by anyone with more knowledge if I said anything in error.

[Zac Yates]

Absolutely, I think everyone is tempted to theorize and assign blame and causes, but realize it would be pointless and tasteless so early on.

Also Scott has explicitly asked us not to, on page one of this thread:

I posted this on the facebook group and the same applies here:

Today several members of the warbird community died in a horrific accident in Texas. I ask that all comments about this incident be respectful and criticism be kept to a minimum. Speculation always occurs in these events but lets respect the families and friends of these aviators and keep the opinions to ourselves and let the FAA due it's job. There will be time for discussion in the future.

[Noha307]

Letter from CAF President to members and supporters:

Dear members and supporters of the Commemorative Air Force (CAF),

I wanted to share with you the news of a tragic accident that happend earlier today. On Saturday, November 12, at approximately 1:20 p.m. CST, two CAF aircraft were involved in a mid-air collision at Dallas Executive Airport during the CAF's Wings Over Dallas WWII Airshow.

The aircraft involved were our B-17 Flying Fortress Texas Raiders N7227C and our P-63 Kingcobra N6763, both based out of the Houston area.

The B-17 operates with a flight crew of 4-5 individuals, and the P-63 operates with a single crew member. At this time, we are not able to provide the identity or personal information about the aircrew involved.

The Commemorative Air Force is working closely with local and national authorities who are investigating this accident. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) will conduct a thorough investigation into the cause of the accident. Currently, no additional information is available.

We will continue to share information with you as we are able. It is always difficult to share news like this, however you are part of our aviation family. It is important that we support one another in times like this.

Hank Coates
President/CEO

(Source: Reddit)

[OD/NG]

My condolences and thoughts go to all of those affected. I don't know what else to say, other than what's already been said here. All of the names have now been released in the public forum. This one hit me hard, as I had associations with 2 of the deceased, though I didn't know them well. My only hope is that we can all learn from this and help prevent this tragedy from ever happening again.

It was especially shocking knowing how extremely experienced and accomplished all of them were. We're not talking about beginners here, but rather pilots who were among the best, most highly trained and experienced amongst their peers. All of this will come out in due time, so I won't rehash it here and it is not the time nor the place to initiate such a conversation.

Our focus now needs to be to support the CAF family and ensure all of their needs are taken care of.

Needless to say, I think this horrific event illustrates the point that sometimes accidents happen to even the best and most accomplished aviators.

RIP, my fellow aviators and crew members.

[Zac Yates]

CNN reports the NTSB will hold a briefing at 1500CST.

[Xray]

CNN reports the NTSB will hold a briefing at 1500CST.

Briefing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdXwCD0EmzI

No new info, just a rehash of what is known and procedures, they never get into details this early but I think its clear details will emerge much quicker than usual. You have to skip to around 17:30 before the briefing starts.

[Zac Yates]

Thank you, xray.

[bluehawk15]

One other factor that most likely contributed. At the briefing for aircrew before the show, altitudes are assigned to different aircraft types. The trainers are usually at the lowest altitude, Cargos are next up, then bombers, and the highest altitude is usually assigned to the fighters. This is even true for TORA, even though the spectators see it as one big fur ball. Same for what appears to be head-on passes, one direction is assigned to one side of the runway (or markers) and the other direction to the other side. When time to land, Airboss lands the bottom aircraft first, then changes altitude assignments to work the stack down for landing. One of the aircraft most likely busted their ceiling, or floor.

[Saabmeister]

One other factor that most likely contributed. At the briefing for aircrew before the show, altitudes are assigned to different aircraft types. The trainers are usually at the lowest altitude, Cargos are next up, then bombers, and the highest altitude is usually assigned to the fighters. This is even true for TORA, even though the spectators see it as one big fur ball. Same for what appears to be head-on passes, one direction is assigned to one side of the runway (or markers) and the other direction to the other side. When time to land, Airboss lands the bottom aircraft first, then changes altitude assignments to work the stack down for landing. One of the aircraft most likely busted their ceiling, or floor.

I’ve been wondering this myself about altitudes and positions. Virtually everything I’ve seen is saying the pilot of the Kingcobra is solely at fault. There is so much speculation, and we won’t know for quite some time exactly what happened. What were the procedures for the display? Was the B-17 out of position in one way or another? The P-63? Both? Was the P-63 pilot told to maneuver the way he did? Was there a mechanical issue? Medical issue? Only time will tell.

More than anything I’m heartbroken about the loss of life. I don’t really give a darn in the grand scheme of things about the planes themselves. I’m thankful that the accident wasn’t worse than it was. I’m hopeful that regardless of what it turns out happened, it will be learned from and air shows will be made safer for the future.

[Matt Gunsch]

Dave Hatfield can speak more from a display pilot point of view, I am speaking from the view of someone who has been in the air during a number of shows and attending countless show briefings, from what I can tell from the videos, the P-63 was descending to make a low pass with the other fighters, however, he was lining up on the wrong show line and the path he was flying, his nose would have blocked his view of the B-17 until the last second. Every airshows has several showlines, the line closest to the crowd is for the slow movers, the ones further from the crowd are for faster planes. Had he lined up on the correct showline, there would have been no conflict. The lines are usually marked by landmarks such as semi trailers or busses parked on the field, buildings, and other landmarks.

[Chris Brame]

In one of the videos it looks like another large airplane - I'm guessing Diamond Lil? - was following Texas Raiders a little way back; the crew may have seen everything. Did they have to take evasive action?

[JimH]

All the shows I’ve flown in, most had markers on the ground, and altitudes and ‘tracks’ were explicitly briefed. The airboss called the shots from the ground, clearing and directing passes. Never felt uncomfortable with any of it, it’s an amazing orchestration.

Jim

[Dave Hadfield]

I've been directly involved in professional accredited accident investigations. On one, I went in thinking I already knew what happened because I had a lot of time in that type of airplane. I was wrong. The conclusions were quite different. I felt like an idiot.

It taught me to shut up about most accidents until the proper investigation is complete.

Accident investigation by social media is unprofessional -- a quote from me in the past.

For information's sake, formation flying at airshows happens according to this system: http://flyfast.org/ That way all the pilots and the airboss are on the same page. It's worth a look.

[hurricane_yank]

For information's sake, formation flying at airshows happens according to this system: http://flyfast.org/ That way all the pilots and the airboss are on the same page. It's worth a look.

Thank you for this!