11/12/2022 - Texas Raiders and P-63 King Cobra collide

[Dana M Bell]

The head-on video seems to show a Stearman taxiing through the fireball. Things could have been even worse...

[17f]

Bear with me here, because I'm not real great with words.

I've learned a lot in the past year through the loss of family and coming face to face with my own mortality. We are all on this planet for a finite amount of time, and nobody can tell you how long it's going to be. And everything can be going perfectly fine... until it isn't, and by that point it might be too late. Nobody flying today woke up this morning and thought they wouldn't be coming home tonight. I guess what I'm trying to say is don't take tomorrow for granted because it may not be there. Hug your family and tell them you love them. Call an old friend you haven't talked to in awhile. Take your dog to the park. Go for a ride with the top down. Live, because it can all go away very fast. Everything was going fine, but then for some, it was over in under 10 seconds.

-Chris

[DaveG]

The head-on video seems to show a Stearman taxiing through the fireball. Things could have been even worse...

Fifi is holding to the far left during the incident as well. Such an awful day. Thinking of those lost and those who knew them.

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[RyanShort1]

The head-on video seems to show a Stearman taxiing through the fireball. Things could have been even worse...

I chatted with the Stearman pilot briefly afterwards. Pretty crazy.

[RyanShort1]

From the Tora flight just before this, before they landed and did a crew swap.

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks for that Ryan, I saw a clip of that Tora flypast and the commentator (announcer in the US?) is heard to say Buddy Cooksey was making his very last flight with the team. I was wondering if he was still onboard, I am hoping he was swapped out now that you say there was a crew swap?

[LysanderUK]

Truly shocked by this news last night, no idea what to say.

RIP to all who died, and thoughts and deepest sympathies to their families.

[Craig59]

Awoke this morning to find this communication from my union in my inbox:

Tragedy in Dallas

As you may have heard, a Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress and a Bell P-63 Kingcobra collided during the Wings Over Dallas airshow today, causing both planes to crash.

We are saddened to report that former APA members CA Terry Barker and CA Len Root – who retired in 2020 and 2021, respectively – were among the crewmembers lost on the B-17.

Our hearts go out to their families, friends, and colleagues past and present.

I did not know Len but, I knew Terry. He was a former check-airman who headed our Training Committee. The committee is charged with oversight by reviewing training debriefs from crew members and then providing feedback, both positive and negative, to the company training department and especially the fleet training managers. Terry was a consummate professional with a quick wit and a dedication to serving others.

BLESS ‘EM ALL

[6trn4brn]

I can't add anything or say anything that has not already been said. I feel gut punched, but am so sad for the families of all who were lost. I truly hope the powers that be do not shut down any future airshows due to this horrible accident. Heart breaking for sure.

[Woodsy Airfield]

Very hard to swallow. God has taken up His children.

[Mick G]

It takes seeing something like this to remind us how fragile these machines are. There were losses just like this in battle, thoughts with those who perished along with the WW2 victims who suffered similar fate.

[Lynn Allen]

Watching one of the videos posted on here, it appears to me that the 63 was in a descending left turn. There is a possibility that the 17 was in his blind spot during the entire turn.

Mike, I think he was focused on his flight lead in front of him and never saw Raiders. I have been in the back of a Mustang and the driver didn't see the B-25 right in front of us so it happens.

Fly Safe

[Xray]

This is more of a head-on video. https://twitter.com/JasonWhitely/status ... 1798668291

Opinion - P63 was watching/following Lead P-51 (seen briefly, far right) and never saw B-17. Sad day for all.

This is not meant to incite an argument or start questioning or building opinions...but I am genuinely curious (as I have no knowledge here) but aren't there briefings on looping patterns and tower control for these shows or is it more flexible?

Separation & situational awareness are obviously high priorities at large warbird gatherings like this, something went amuck and speculation is pointless at this time.

I have seen "flexible" shows when I was a kid, including shows with no tower control at all, in fact no tower present. This could not have been one of those [if they are even allowed anymore, I'm talking late 70's], with major performers at a large city airfield. Typically, tower closes off airspace at a predetermined time then hands off control to an "airboss" when showtime starts, who uses his own frequency to control the aircraft, and has complete operational control over all performing aircraft for the entire duration of the show from takeoff to landing. These "bosses" actually travel the country controlling shows, not sure how many of them there are but I would guess the numbers are low.
Airboss channel can easily be monitored on a scanner, I have been listening in for years at shows. Never really thought about it before but I presume the airboss concept was/is to use guys with alot of airshow experience to control this highly specialized and unique airflow, as an average air controller would not be well versed controlling a dozen or more aircraft making continuous passes. Also minimizes potential for miscommunications since they are all on a single control frequency. 1 guy, 1 freq and all performers are glued to that freq and conduct all traffic through it [The only exceptions to airshow airboss control are demo teams like the Blue Angels. They use their own controller, and you can hear them hand off and hand back control during the progression of shows] Not a factor here, just added for insight.

When the last performer lands and the show is over, airboss hands airspace control back to the tower, tower cancels all airshow restrictions, and the formerly very active airboss frequency goes mute until the next airshow.

Very skilled and experienced, but not perfect, I have heard them get overwhelmed and make mistakes, probably the nature of the game and would happen no matter what system they used. Cannot underrate the difficulty of controlling so many aircraft all over the sky, some ingressing, some egressing, some still taking off, some perhaps requesting to land, with some identical types adding complexity [ie: Cannot have a call sign of "Mustang" as they would for a single ship if there are more than 1 Mustangs performing - In that case they would likely go Mustang 1, Mustang 2 ect] ,, But unless they are doing all formation passes, hes got to be sure he is talking to the right Mustang. I think the average tower controller would not care for that task, to laymen like us it would be unimaginable. They've got to be authoritative but laid back, easy going yet harsh when they need to be - Their commands must be complied with immediately and without question. The flow of the show and, more importantly, lives and machines depend on them having complete and correct 3D situational awareness, and making the right calls at the right time.
No one at that ill fated show would have had a better technical overview into what went wrong here than the airboss, and his input will be critical to the investigation.

As far as briefings prior to the show, maybe someone with more direct knowledge than me can chime in, but yes certainly every pilot performing would be aware of his routine and coordinate with others, most shows have full practice sessions a day and sometimes 2 days prior to the show, though for obvious reasons sometimes not all aircraft are present for the practice [late arrivals] These practice sessions BTW are a joy to watch, sometimes better than the actual show, and often from vantage points that are closed off on show days.
[edited with more into/typo corrections]

Last edited by Xray on Sun Nov 13, 2022 5:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[StangStung]

I was present but did not see the accident, only the aftermath. Even then I couldn't quite believe what I was seeing. I had taken two 10 year olds with me. My son, who has been to dozens of airshows, and his friend, who had never been. They had seen enough flying for the day, so we were down near the reinactors camp and they were trying to spend their money on souvenirs. At that point in the day, we were accustomed to the explosions and smoke of the pyrotechnics. We weren't in view of the end of the runway where the crash occurred. We walked back to the end of the field where the accident had happened stopping at the various sales booths, and as I was standing there seeing fire trucks, I asked a man next to me if the pyro team had set the grass on fire again (as had happened in years past). But the look on his face told me what had happened. I gathered up the boys and we trundled back down to the far end of the runway where the cars were parked. The crowd was pretty quiet. It was only then, as we were nearly to the car that I heard the announcer saying it was unlikely there would be any more flying today that it really hit me. We were in the car waiting in line to get out for about an hour. Only one road was roped off for exit, which isn't a big deal when everyone is leaving piecemeal, but slows things down considerably when everyone leaves at once. The kids were completely oblivious until I told them we had to go. Then my son's friend asked if this happens at all airshows. I told him I'd been to many many airshows over nearly 50 years and never seen anything like this. Because they hand't seen it, it was really only conceptual to them and before long they were just complaining about the wait to get out. I worry about the kids who did see it though.

Fair skies and following tailwinds to those the community lost today, and strength and comfort to their families.

What a tragedy.

[hurricane_yank]

This is more of a head-on video. https://twitter.com/JasonWhitely/status ... 1798668291

Opinion - P63 was watching/following Lead P-51 (seen briefly, far right) and never saw B-17. Sad day for all.

This is not meant to incite an argument or start questioning or building opinions...but I am genuinely curious (as I have no knowledge here) but aren't there briefings on looping patterns and tower control for these shows or is it more flexible?

Separation & situational awareness are obviously high priorities at large warbird gatherings like this, something went amuck and speculation is pointless at this time.

I have seen "flexible" shows when I was a kid, including shows with no tower control at all, in fact no tower present. This could not have been one of those, with major performers at a large city airfield. Typically, tower hands off control to an "airboss" when showtime starts, who uses his own frequency to control the aircraft, and has complete operational control over all performing aircraft for the entire duration of the show from takeoff to landing. These "bosses" actually travel the country controlling shows, not sure how many of them there are but I would guess the numbers are low.
Traffic can easily be monitored on a scanner, I have been listening in for years at shows. Never thought about it but I presume the airboss concept was/is to use guys to control this highly specialized and unique airflow, as an average air controller would not be well versed controlling a dozen or more aircraft making continuous passes. Also minimizes potential for miscommunications since they are all on a single control frequency. [The only exceptions to airboss control are demo teams like the Blue Angels. They use their own controller, and you can hear them hand off and hand back control during the progression of shows] When the last performer lands and the show is over, airboss hands airspace control back to the tower, and the formerly very active airboss frequency goes dead.

Very skilled and experienced, but not perfect, I have heard them get overwhelmed and make mistakes. No one would have had a better technical overview into what went wrong here than the airboss, and his input will be critical to the investigation.

Thank you, and again no intention on my post to start speculation, after 30+ years of going to shows it is nice to finally have some insight into the actual process as it is something that I have never dug into.