Wed May 31, 2006 11:41 pm
Well, I work at Long Beach airport. What makes you think it would go there?m50a1ontos wrote:Now to stake out a certain hanger at Long Beach airport!
Who is Aero Archaeology Limited (AAL)? Is that another name for D. Tallichet?
National museum board chairman Arthur Jawodimbari yesterday said they could not reject an agreement signed with Military Aircraft Restoration Corporation (MARC), because it would be legally and financially costly to the state... “The US$100,000 (K301,000) held in an Escrow account at Westpac Port Moresby, according to the agreement, will be divided 50% to the state, 25% to the Oro provincial government and 25% to the landowners,” Mr Jawodimbari said.
I told you they wouldn't give it back!
Wed May 31, 2006 11:46 pm
Hmm...okay, MARC is DT...who runs/owns AAR? So will it go to Penn or So-Cal?..or?
In any event...it's apparently on it's way, which is a good thing.
In any event...it's apparently on it's way, which is a good thing.
Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:31 am
Another view from the empire...
It is my earnest belief that all countries have the right and the responsibility to preserve artefacts from their past for future generations.
What I didnt realise until I started reading about this issue in PNG, is just how different PNG is to the rest of the world. Their culture is just so different to anything we can imagine, that we should be careful before we cast aspersions in their direction.
I believe that the government of PNG should preserve certain of these war relics for future generations, even if it is a case of recover them now, store them for a period of time, and then restore them, and that to fund this, it would be appropriate for them to allow certain other artefacts to be exported/sold off. So, if there are another two or three B-17's remaining in that country, I do believe that one should stay, as it is as much part of their history as it is anyone elses.
In a wider context, there are a number of aircraft scattered throughout the world, and preserved in national and local museums, that are not preserved in their home countries. That applies to American designs as well as British designs. I believe it is right and proper for them to be so displayed, as long as they are relevant to the country in question, and that they are displayed in context. For that reason, if (and its hypothetical) a Halifax turned up in Egypt, and was displayed in a manner that reflected the use of the type in that country, then I would wholly support it remaining there.
Having looked at the pictures of Swamp Ghost, I earnestly hope that it is not restored to fly, and is not over restored in an attempt to make it something it is not. As has been pointed out, it is a combat veteran, and that is rare indeed. Over restoring it will negate any historical impact this aircraft will have for the future.
I would also point out that there are other B-17's in the USA that are less well cared for than Swamp Ghost will be, and bearing in mind that they were built within 2 or 3 years of Swamp Ghost are not so very different to her, combat history aside. I hope the time can be taken to look at these airframes and find a way to bring them into active preservation as well.
Lastly, we cannot, and should not try to preserve everything. I wonder at the value of the P38 right now, as a number of examples are being recovered from all over the place. Whilst they wont exactly become commonplace, the current survivors will surely become less valuable as a result of their being less rare?
Bruce
It is my earnest belief that all countries have the right and the responsibility to preserve artefacts from their past for future generations.
What I didnt realise until I started reading about this issue in PNG, is just how different PNG is to the rest of the world. Their culture is just so different to anything we can imagine, that we should be careful before we cast aspersions in their direction.
I believe that the government of PNG should preserve certain of these war relics for future generations, even if it is a case of recover them now, store them for a period of time, and then restore them, and that to fund this, it would be appropriate for them to allow certain other artefacts to be exported/sold off. So, if there are another two or three B-17's remaining in that country, I do believe that one should stay, as it is as much part of their history as it is anyone elses.
In a wider context, there are a number of aircraft scattered throughout the world, and preserved in national and local museums, that are not preserved in their home countries. That applies to American designs as well as British designs. I believe it is right and proper for them to be so displayed, as long as they are relevant to the country in question, and that they are displayed in context. For that reason, if (and its hypothetical) a Halifax turned up in Egypt, and was displayed in a manner that reflected the use of the type in that country, then I would wholly support it remaining there.
Having looked at the pictures of Swamp Ghost, I earnestly hope that it is not restored to fly, and is not over restored in an attempt to make it something it is not. As has been pointed out, it is a combat veteran, and that is rare indeed. Over restoring it will negate any historical impact this aircraft will have for the future.
I would also point out that there are other B-17's in the USA that are less well cared for than Swamp Ghost will be, and bearing in mind that they were built within 2 or 3 years of Swamp Ghost are not so very different to her, combat history aside. I hope the time can be taken to look at these airframes and find a way to bring them into active preservation as well.
Lastly, we cannot, and should not try to preserve everything. I wonder at the value of the P38 right now, as a number of examples are being recovered from all over the place. Whilst they wont exactly become commonplace, the current survivors will surely become less valuable as a result of their being less rare?
Bruce
Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:28 am
RER - In all fairness nowhere in my post does it state it should be left in the swamp. PNG has been a rich picking ground for many years for historical artifacts. Whilst the country shows little sign of becoming stable to the degree of our Western countries we shouldn't use that to our advantage.
Certainly damage has been done to her over the years by helicopters - I would question how many of the locals have these or are they machines being used by contractors employed in the various mines.
PNG needs to preserve it's heritage - a B-17 richly deserves to be preserved in the region and maybe a more enlightened attitude could prevail in PNG to see the 'Black Cat' machine at least inside on display in PNG. The people of PNG and her remoteness has preserved Swamp Ghost - maybe it's time people became a little more grateful for what thye have provided to preservation over the years.
As for the '109' - cannot comment on that .
Certainly damage has been done to her over the years by helicopters - I would question how many of the locals have these or are they machines being used by contractors employed in the various mines.
PNG needs to preserve it's heritage - a B-17 richly deserves to be preserved in the region and maybe a more enlightened attitude could prevail in PNG to see the 'Black Cat' machine at least inside on display in PNG. The people of PNG and her remoteness has preserved Swamp Ghost - maybe it's time people became a little more grateful for what thye have provided to preservation over the years.
As for the '109' - cannot comment on that .
Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:23 am
David,
While I have some sympathy for your perspective, I feel that it is more than a little naive.
I would be delighted to see a B-17 under cover, and properly preserved in a PNG museum. I think it would be a richly deserved and beffitting testimonial to the role PNG citizens played alongside the Allies in winning the war. However, PNG has not the means, nor seemingly the interest in putting a serious effort into doing this... nor does this seem likely to occur for decades to come. I don't believe one single vintage military aircraft is in a preserved state (let alone indoors) in the entire country. It is hardly surprising though, as the PNG citizens have much more important things to worry about than a few rusty relics lying scattered about the countryside.
It would be nice if some kind of symbiotic relationship could be encouraged, as it was with the A-20 Hell n' Pelican, so that some aircraft are preserved for PNG's future. However, I imagine somehow that $100k will go a long way to help the people of the village and others that it will go to, if it is properly managed. What would you rather have, a rusty relic that will eventually be scrapped by some unscrupulous mid-night cowboy, or a school for your children, medicine and food on the table?... I think I know the appropriate answer to that one, and so should you.
All the best,
Richard
While I have some sympathy for your perspective, I feel that it is more than a little naive.
I would be delighted to see a B-17 under cover, and properly preserved in a PNG museum. I think it would be a richly deserved and beffitting testimonial to the role PNG citizens played alongside the Allies in winning the war. However, PNG has not the means, nor seemingly the interest in putting a serious effort into doing this... nor does this seem likely to occur for decades to come. I don't believe one single vintage military aircraft is in a preserved state (let alone indoors) in the entire country. It is hardly surprising though, as the PNG citizens have much more important things to worry about than a few rusty relics lying scattered about the countryside.
It would be nice if some kind of symbiotic relationship could be encouraged, as it was with the A-20 Hell n' Pelican, so that some aircraft are preserved for PNG's future. However, I imagine somehow that $100k will go a long way to help the people of the village and others that it will go to, if it is properly managed. What would you rather have, a rusty relic that will eventually be scrapped by some unscrupulous mid-night cowboy, or a school for your children, medicine and food on the table?... I think I know the appropriate answer to that one, and so should you.
All the best,
Richard
Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:01 pm
At such time when PNG has the interest and the money to support it, they should procure and display a B-17. It is all in the timing, which is atrocious right now in PNG for the survival of these relics. Having it scrapped piece by piece by the locals or letting it dissolve in place will destroy what value remains.
PNG can always buy "Swamp Ghost" (or any other number of representative aircraft) back later and put it on display. There are plenty of historic P-40s out there that would require a lot less capital expenditure to purchase, house and display for instance.
PNG can always buy "Swamp Ghost" (or any other number of representative aircraft) back later and put it on display. There are plenty of historic P-40s out there that would require a lot less capital expenditure to purchase, house and display for instance.
Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:06 pm
Is it in the interests of current collectors to encourage aircraft preservation in PNG ? Whilst there isn't as much interest in the relics - I think we maybe underestimate their desire to see something remain in the country. There must be some way in which preservation can be encouraged in the country - I should imagine that the remit of the National Museum to carry out deals will be sharply monitored .
If it's a case that a hangar cannot be afforded - surely the way forward to to try and offer advice that could help down that route.
If it's a case that a hangar cannot be afforded - surely the way forward to to try and offer advice that could help down that route.
Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:49 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't PNG had 60+ years to preserve this portion of their history ? I don't believe even a minimalist approach has been used to to protect these relics. How much would a tin shed cost to erect over an object while leaving it in place ?
Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:58 pm
Considering that we have just learned that the govt of Canada, my homeland which I have always considered a relatively enlightened, developed and well-off country, cannot or will not spare $500K to recover its last remaining Yukon from Equador, I venture that the day when PNG will be able to part with that kind of money to preserve its aviation heritage is farther down the road than some here seem to assume.
I also sense an inability to come to terms with the vast cultural, economic, and political gulfs between our countries and PNG, as well as what it means to a country's identity and heritage to have had its territory fought over by larger imperial powers.
I also sense an inability to come to terms with the vast cultural, economic, and political gulfs between our countries and PNG, as well as what it means to a country's identity and heritage to have had its territory fought over by larger imperial powers.
Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:02 pm
I say that for the most part we should retrieve these wrecks for wherever they are available and after paying a reasonable price to the country that they come from-------they should be restored TO AIRWORTHY CONDITION and FLOWN!
Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:16 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't PNG had 60+ years to preserve this portion of their history ? I don't believe even a minimalist approach has been used to to protect these relics. How much would a tin shed cost to erect over an object while leaving it in place ?
Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:18 pm
PNG and all of these back waters governments will never, and I repeat NEVER, have any interest in the preservation of any of the aviation relics/wrecks in their possession.
The people that can afford to retrieve and restore these aircraft shouldn't have to spend a dime to rebuild a wreck, as some would like to see done, in exchange for recovering others. Unless, of course, there is a permanent facility to display the rebuilt aircraft and take care of it. And that doesn't mean some shed at some airport.
What they should do is to make a list of the wrecks that they have available and how much they are reasonably willing to sell them for.
This way they will have a set amount of money coming into the national governments and not into the pockets of whomever decides that they have a stake in the aircraft, legit or not.
Until something like this can be worked out, the different wrecks will continue being just that and soon will no longer be viable for restoration.
After that they'll just be so much scrap, and that's where they'll probably end up. In a scrap yard.
The people that can afford to retrieve and restore these aircraft shouldn't have to spend a dime to rebuild a wreck, as some would like to see done, in exchange for recovering others. Unless, of course, there is a permanent facility to display the rebuilt aircraft and take care of it. And that doesn't mean some shed at some airport.
What they should do is to make a list of the wrecks that they have available and how much they are reasonably willing to sell them for.
This way they will have a set amount of money coming into the national governments and not into the pockets of whomever decides that they have a stake in the aircraft, legit or not.
Until something like this can be worked out, the different wrecks will continue being just that and soon will no longer be viable for restoration.
After that they'll just be so much scrap, and that's where they'll probably end up. In a scrap yard.
Last edited by DIK SHEPHERD on Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:57 pm
You guys give the PNG government too much credit.
My uncle served in the US Army over there and he told us many stories of headhunters and cannibals in that country. SOrry to bust your bubble , but cannibalism was only officially outlawed there in the 1950's. So you are dealing with a very primitive society that has a few educated "elite class" corrupt politicians. Not all that different to China before WWII.
Tourism? get real!! Their future relies on economic development of their raw natural resources, timber, coal, copper etc. and the exploitation of their people in low wage facilities like China. PNG is too far away, too expensive to get to, too dangerous, and too remote for very much of the tourism dollar. For my money I'm going to Australia, New Zealand, Thailand or Hong Kong. They should sell all their foreign built artifacts and start a benefit fund for the good of their own people.
Eventually these old hulks won't have any residual financial value.
My uncle served in the US Army over there and he told us many stories of headhunters and cannibals in that country. SOrry to bust your bubble , but cannibalism was only officially outlawed there in the 1950's. So you are dealing with a very primitive society that has a few educated "elite class" corrupt politicians. Not all that different to China before WWII.
Tourism? get real!! Their future relies on economic development of their raw natural resources, timber, coal, copper etc. and the exploitation of their people in low wage facilities like China. PNG is too far away, too expensive to get to, too dangerous, and too remote for very much of the tourism dollar. For my money I'm going to Australia, New Zealand, Thailand or Hong Kong. They should sell all their foreign built artifacts and start a benefit fund for the good of their own people.
Eventually these old hulks won't have any residual financial value.
Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:40 pm
Lets get serious about the prospects of any thrird world country preserving their military heritage - it is simply not a national priority and wouldn't be for many years. If a situation occurs whereby a mutual benefit can be obtained through the recovery and display of multiple airframes and one is returned to the country of origin for display later than great as with Hell N Pelikan 11 but there has to be a will to build a facility and house it and care for it etc and frankly that isn't on the horizon for most of these counteries when they can't even maintain basic services and law and order.
The assets however are not there just for the taking and proper respect and negoiation needs to take place if ongoing good relations and mutual benefits are to occur. Ram Raiding a country over a single aircraft is no way to assure future recoveries will take place.
I continue to site here a great test / reference case in the A20s that have come out of PNG over the years yeilding major components from ten aircraft and will see eventually up to four aircraft flying and have seen two fantastic complete restorations in the form of the RAAFM Boston 22Sqn Jessica displayed at Point Cook and Hell N Pelikan 11 restored in Australia and eventually to go back to PNG as a display item. This is a real model as to how these things can be done - there is I believe a similar arrangement over a Ki61 with others in the wind. These deals reflect well on people organising them as do the arrangements in place for Swamp Ghost as we currently understand them . As long as the country is well informed and gets to participate as a partner then how is anybody disadvantaged . On the other hand the book should be thrown at Ram Raiders who steal material as they cripple the future prospects of scrupulous people trying to do sustainable recovery.
For those who don't know here from the directory is Hell N Pelikan 11 ciurrently stored here in queensland till the day she can return to PNG
Kind regards
John
Serial #: 42-86786
Construction #: ?
Civil Registration:
None
Model: A-20G
Name: Hell'n Pelican II
Status: Stored
Last info: 2000
History:
Delivered to USAAF as 42-86786, 19??.
- Allocated to 388th BS.
-- Forced landing Amaimon, PNG, Apr. 16, 1944.
RAAF Museum, RAF Wagga, NSW, Nov. 1984-1991.
- Recovered from Amaimon.
- Restored for static displayed, 1984-1996.
PNG Government, 1996-2002.
- Stored RAAF Amberly pending facility construction.
The assets however are not there just for the taking and proper respect and negoiation needs to take place if ongoing good relations and mutual benefits are to occur. Ram Raiding a country over a single aircraft is no way to assure future recoveries will take place.
I continue to site here a great test / reference case in the A20s that have come out of PNG over the years yeilding major components from ten aircraft and will see eventually up to four aircraft flying and have seen two fantastic complete restorations in the form of the RAAFM Boston 22Sqn Jessica displayed at Point Cook and Hell N Pelikan 11 restored in Australia and eventually to go back to PNG as a display item. This is a real model as to how these things can be done - there is I believe a similar arrangement over a Ki61 with others in the wind. These deals reflect well on people organising them as do the arrangements in place for Swamp Ghost as we currently understand them . As long as the country is well informed and gets to participate as a partner then how is anybody disadvantaged . On the other hand the book should be thrown at Ram Raiders who steal material as they cripple the future prospects of scrupulous people trying to do sustainable recovery.
For those who don't know here from the directory is Hell N Pelikan 11 ciurrently stored here in queensland till the day she can return to PNG
Kind regards
John
Serial #: 42-86786
Construction #: ?
Civil Registration:
None
Model: A-20G
Name: Hell'n Pelican II
Status: Stored
Last info: 2000
History:
Delivered to USAAF as 42-86786, 19??.
- Allocated to 388th BS.
-- Forced landing Amaimon, PNG, Apr. 16, 1944.
RAAF Museum, RAF Wagga, NSW, Nov. 1984-1991.
- Recovered from Amaimon.
- Restored for static displayed, 1984-1996.
PNG Government, 1996-2002.
- Stored RAAF Amberly pending facility construction.
Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:51 pm
When I was a lot younger (in the 1960's), I can remember reading an article about the Swamp Ghost and always wondered why no-one recovered her. I also recall reading an article about someone pulling a plane out of a jungle after getting permission from the local authorities and land owners to recover it and had gotton so frustrated in "newly materilized landowners" claims after he had gotten it out to a dock that he got a bulldozer and pushed it off the dock into the water and left. Now I know why after reading this saga.
Kenn
Kenn