USS Lexington (CV-2) wreck found .. 4 March 2018 [revised]

[airnutz]

I found a manual. Maritime.org is handy at times. The Mark 15 is the one with the large cylindrical blast shield above the tubes. The instructions weren't repeated in the manual, or I missed it, but look at page 41 near the bottom under TORPEDO STOP MECHANISM.
21-INCH ABOVE WATER TORPEDO TUBES MARK 14 AND MARK 15 (page 40)
https://maritime.org/doc/destroyer/ddtu ... x.htm#pg40

[DH82EH]

I must be getting old(er). My toleration for ignorant people is at an all time low. If any of you are foolish enough (like myself) to follow some of the facebook pages regarding what P Allen and the RV Petrel folks are doing, you'll most likely see some real dumb*ss posts from some really clueless and disrespectful people.

Mark, when I brought up this thread today, I was already wanting to thank you again for passing along the FB photos for those of us who cannot or will not "do FB". Your recent post above cemented the deal. You provide an invaluable service to people like me, and I feel a genuine debt of gratitude to you. Thank You Sir. I would sure like to shake your hand and buy you a beer (or martini or Porsche or whatever).

Again, I'm currently in a remote location in west Texas doing volunteer work and have limited computer time/access at this exciting time, so what you do is much more than a mere convenience for some of us.

Mark, I too echo Kurts sentiments. Your posting of the facebook pics is hugely appreciated.

I definitely know how you feel regarding some folks expectancy and ingratitude. I used to be a people person... ....Then people ruined it for me

Andy

[Robert61267]

I used to be a people person... ....Then people ruined it for me

I teach high school. Welcome to my world!

Regarding the piece of Lex's machinery a couple of pages back with the little builders plaque on it. It appears to be dated, "1942," which means that it was likely installed during one of Lex's brief Pearl Harbor yard times before her loss, making it one of the last pieces of "new" gear installed. Has anyone come to a consensus or educated guess about what it was?

A few plane questions that I hope the R/V Petrel folks can perhaps answer. "That" F4F appears to be missing its tail. Did the R/V Petrel folks come across it in the debris field, by chance? It looks like a lot of planes have either lost their tails or had them crumpled up, likely the result of impacting the sea floor at some velocity. If I'm right about that, then the tail may not be too far away from the rest of the F4F. The lack of visible fire damage makes me consider this for the F4F instead of her tail being blown off in the explosions. Also, were there other planes found that we just haven't seen photos of? Or, discovered in the sonar analysis but not imaged? Just curious if we can put a reliable figure on how much of Lex's air group actually still remains.

Thanks!

Bob

[CoastieJohn]

A few plane questions that I hope the R/V Petrel folks can perhaps answer. "That" F4F appears to be missing its tail. Did the R/V Petrel folks come across it in the debris field, by chance? It looks like a lot of planes have either lost their tails or had them crumpled up, likely the result of impacting the sea floor at some velocity. If I'm right about that, then the tail may not be too far away from the rest of the F4F. The lack of visible fire damage makes me consider this for the F4F instead of her tail being blown off in the explosions. Also, were there other planes found that we just haven't seen photos of? Or, discovered in the sonar analysis but not imaged? Just curious if we can put a reliable figure on how much of Lex's air group actually still remains.

Thanks!

Bob

That brings up an interesting thought to me at least. The airframes that are free failing thru the depths, would they hit the sea floor nose up or tail up? A few things I would consider to maybe answer that....nose heavy, trapped air if any at that depth, fuel in the tanks, ordinance installed, wing effect, etc.

[Clifford Bossie]

R/V Petrel has moved on to the Solomon Islands, where they located the wreckage of USS Juneau (CL-52) two days ago (17 March 2018)

https://www.paulallen.com/uss-juneau-wreck-located-famous-for-sullivan-brothers/

In my very first post of this thread I speculated that there "could be exciting days ahead." But, I admit I had no idea how accurate that would prove to be!

What's next? Hornet? Wasp? Where would you go after this?

I want to see the 4 Japanese carriers sunk at Midway and what shape their aircraft are in.

August

That would probably be a disappointment. When the Kaga, Akagi and Soryu were hit the majority of the Japanese aircraft (that were not airborne) were in the hangar decks. They would have been fricasseed in short order. There most likely were not many, if any at all, above deck to be thrown overboard. Not sure about the Hiryu aircraft, but there were not many left by the time of her sinking. There are most likely a few Japanese aircraft in the debris fields, but I suspect the Lex is one of the few wrecks with so many identifiable aircraft, in relative good shape.

[Robert61267]

Kaga and Soryu were funeral pyres. There wouldn't be much left of them, let alone their air groups. The illustration in Shattered Sword of what Kaga looked like towards the end is sobering. I personally doubt there'd be much of Kaga left at all above the lowest continuous deck. Akagi and Hiryu would likely be in better condition since the fires weren't quite as bad aboard them, Akagi being lost to a jammed rudder as much as anything else. Of course, since their erxact ends weren't witnessed, the fires could have sprung up aboard them and worsened; we just don't know. The big problem would be finding any of them.

That brings up an interesting thought to me at least. The airframes that are free failing thru the depths, would they hit the sea floor nose up or tail up? A few things I would consider to maybe answer that....nose heavy, trapped air if any at that depth, fuel in the tanks, ordinance installed, wing effect, etc.

The mostly intact planes we've seen seem to be right side up, generally. They seem to have hit the bottom landing gear first, though perhaps somewhat nose down given the weight of the engines. That may also explain some of the breaking and buckling we see there. I'd imagine that their landing gear shocks/springs did their job, while the less powerful tail wheel shocks/springs did not, which might explain the bending and fracturing right in front of the empennages. Obviously, they must have hit the bottom at a decent velocity and more or less straight down, instead of the relatively more gently carrier landing. My guess would be mostly flat to somewhat nose down, with the noses and main gears hitting first, then the tails coming down and fracturing or bending from the impacts. The main landing gears appear intact, so they didn't fall fast enough to collapse them. I do wonder what the effect of the folded wings had upon the TBDs' falls to the ocean floor. Did the wings snap open upon impact or during the descent?


Interesting that the TBDs don't seem to have been armed. Lex was preparing a followup strike when the fatal explosions hit. Perhaps the deckhands hadn't had time to fully rearm the strike group? Or, were they armed and did the torpedoes detach while falling to the ocean floor?

Bob

[lmritger]

Interesting that the TBDs don't seem to have been armed. Lex was preparing a followup strike when the fatal explosions hit. Perhaps the deckhands hadn't had time to fully rearm the strike group? Or, were they armed and did the torpedoes detach while falling to the ocean floor?

Bob

If I recall the timeline correctly, the strike group landed after the Lex had been hit and brought back into fighting trim; they believed they had either heavily damaged or sunk the Shokaku and they were retiring eastward when all he|| broke loose at 1247, when the first massive explosion took place somewhere around the forward elevator well, torching through the CPO quarters and starting the sequence of events which would cause the loss of the ship. The aircraft were spotted in a way which suggested the only impending air ops would be the usual inner air patrols, hence F4Fs closest to the front.

If you look at the one pic of T-12 that Petrel has released thus far, NAP Harley Talkington's ship, you can still see the torpedo retaining straps still attached to the aircraft on one side... that detail alone absolutely floored me. Interestingly, the fairings for the torpedoes have all rotted away on every aircraft, which makes me wonder what those were made of.

Lynn

[marine air]

Okay a few thoughts to add to the theories about the aircraft coming to rest on the bottom. The tails being broken off really caught my attention. This is very common in stall spin accidents, especially visible in an aircraft close to the ground. 2) I couldn’t figure out why they had their tails broken.
Theory 1) an explosion blew the aircraft off the carrier and the tails were torn loose as they were tossed asunder.
Theory 2) when the ship went underwater, their buoyancy broke their chains and they were freed. The aircraft spun or spiraled down to their watery grave. In most conventional aircraft , if you enter a spin, spiral, or inverted spin, there is a simple remedy. Let go of all the controls. The aircraft will eventually right itself, regain flying speed and eventually raise it’s nose above the horizon. Conventional airplanes typically don’t fly straight and level but enter a gentle spiral if not corrected.
This to say, I believe the aircraft spiraled down, right side up until they hit the bottom. The landing gear did it’s job. Either the nose hit first or the gear, then the nose, since there was no back pressure applied to the control stick. The rotational force broke the tails upon impact with the sea bottom.

[Mmarland]

I had a chance today to meet with 96 year survivor uss northhampton, nicest gentleman, he served through 1941 and its 1942 sinking, he then became plank owner on USS Iowa. He had incredible scrapbook. One clipping in particular was from Boston Globe dated January 12th 1943, where navy revealed sinking of vessels including uss juneau. So thankful for our great veterans. May their stories always be remembered.

Mike Marland

[Robert61267]

Lynn,

I tend to disagree just a little bit. Before the explosions started, Lex had already launched a mixed inner air and combat air patrol of SBDs and F4Fs, as much to clear the deck as anything else, so the planes on deck weren't for that.

The planes were spotted in a way that suggests a strike was being prepared, key word "suggests." As you state, the belief was that Shokaku was seriously damaged or perhaps sunk, so it was two versus one in the eyes of Fletcher and Fitch. At worst, if Lex had to depart the odds would be even. The question was, how much of the preparations were underway when the Lex's internal explosions started? In other words, how much of "the order" had been given or anticipated? "Black Shoe Carrier Admiral" states that Fletcher wanted to renew the attack as soon as possible, and if Lex's condition did not improve to rearm the Yorktown with her planes, sending Lex back to Pearl. That may have occurred that day or probably the next depending upon circumstances. Yorktown fairly quickly worked back up to 30 knots and appeared ready to continue the fight, alone if necessary late that day or the next although Fletcher had some pretty clear misgivings about Japanese fighter superiority and this may have been what eventually made him change his mind. Aboard Lex, the deck was spotted as it normally would be deference to the take off runs needed - TBDs aft, SBDs in the middle, F4Fs forward. What's interesting is that the attack jammed both of Lex's elevators in the up position, and yet the aircraft on deck were still spotted in their usual order. So... Either this was a random chance event dependent upon landing order, or a conscious choice requiring a lot of pushing and pulling of planes with (mostly) nonfolding wings, and a conscious choice would mean that it was being done for a clear reason.

So, the real issue is had the Lex begun to rearm her planes when the explosions began? They were certainly spotted as they normally would be for a strike, but was this intentional or happenstance? Were they simply being placed in that order in anticipation of being sent over to Yorktown? If so, would they be sent over there armed or unarmed? Was it affected by the operations of Lex's elevators? Were the explosions seen on Lex's flight deck that flung planes over the side caused by ordnance on the planes cooking off or by some other sources? We may never know. Its fun to think about though!

I had a chance today to meet with 96 year survivor uss northhampton, nicest gentleman,

Awesome. I was fortunate about ten years ago to meet the South Dakota's helmsman from "that night" in November, 1942. All those years later, he still had some very definite opinions about the USS Washington!

Bob

[old iron]

All those years later, he still had some very definite opinions about the USS Washington!

Were the "very definite opinions" positive or negative? Just curious.

As I remember, on "that night" the USS Washington was engaged in the only battleship-battleship engagement in the Pacific War. The USS South Dakota was nearby engaged in a battle with electrical problems, and might have been of more use to the military as a recruitment sign in San Diego!

[old iron]

All those years later, he still had some very definite opinions about the USS Washington!

Were the "very definite opinions" positive or negative? Just curious.

As I remember, on "that night" the USS Washington was engaged in the only battleship-battleship engagement in the Pacific War. The USS South Dakota was nearby engaged in a battle with electrical problems, and might have been of more use to the military as a recruitment sign in San Diego!

[Robert61267]

VERY negative! He was a real gentleman and quite diplomatic, but apparently the stories about bad blood were accurate. The SoDak sailors claimed that their ship had won the battle and that the Washington had abandoned them when the opposite was true. It was Washington that handled Kirishima. Indeed, had SoDak not turned in front of the burning DDs and instead followed Washington behind them, allowing herself to be silhouetted for the Japanese, the pounding she took likely wouldn't have happened. Of course, I didn't want to say that since he was the one "driving" at the time, but in the fog of war no one quite understood what had happened. South Dakota simply started getting hit and Washington appeared to just be sailing away. Things got so bad ashore that the crews had to be separated and not allowed on liberty simultaneously. Fights were common and both crews were anxious to claim credit for the victory. Since SoDak (Battleship X) got home first for repairs, she initially received the credit which only further upset the Washington crew. I mentioned that an early war ship like Enterprise, South Dakota or Washington should have been the surrender site, not Missouri and he stopped me right there when I mentioned Washington!

Bob

Last edited by Robert61267 on Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Russ Matthews]

USS Washington was engaged in the only battleship-battleship engagement in the Pacific.

Well .. "only" with the exception of the Battle of Surigao Strait (25 October 1944), that is.

[steve dickey]

Having been to the American Cemetery in Manila a couple years ago to specifically record the engraved names of the Sullivan brothers
makes you feel like you where on hallowed ground! Its just unreal they found it and put a bit of closure for those family's
I am just in awe...