Doolittle Raid B-25B Questions?

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:31 pm

The drawing that Ellen gave me, which Ted had drawn up is exactly like that depicted in the Pearl Harbor version.

Pathfinder · **Joined:** Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:35 pm **Posts:** 587

Chris--

What then is your opinion of the Lovelace art and the provenance he provides?

BTW someone asked about part of the RD fuselage being on display in Tokyo after the raid. Lawson mentions it in TSOT that a returning POW told him that he had seen the RD art on display in a square in Tokyo.

Do we have any WIXers in Japan who can research that...maybe through newspaper archives?

Maty12 · **Joined:** Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:11 pm **Posts:** 74

Hey, guys, remember that B-25 I posted a picture of that I thought was the Duck, but had those weird probes? Well, I found this picture of a B-25 fresh off the factory in Kansas with the same probes. Also, notice the demarcation lines, they're very low wavy ones. Would explain why some (Hari Kari-Er, for example) have some slight waves in part of the lines.

I'm not sure whether it's a B-25B or a C, since it has C navigator windows and C exhaust stacks, but lacks the engine warts and has the B-25B style nose section and cockpit. There's also the lack of a fixed MG in the nose. Maybe a late production B?

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:50 pm

Maty12 wrote:

Hey, guys, remember that B-25 I posted a picture of that I thought was the Duck, but had those weird probes? Well, I found this picture of a B-25 fresh off the factory in Kansas with the same probes. Also, notice the demarcation lines, they're very low wavy ones. Would explain why some (Hari Kari-Er, for example) have some slight waves in part of the lines.

I'm not sure whether it's a B-25B or a C, since it has C navigator windows and C exhaust stacks, but lacks the engine warts and has the B-25B style nose section and cockpit. There's also the lack of a fixed MG in the nose. Maybe a late production B?

I have seen NO verified pictures of the Raiders' B-models with for-sure wavy demarcation on the underside paint schemes. Pretty sure that's a C or later model. Also, I don't think those are probes. They appear to be venturi tubes providing vacuum for instruments.

Ryan

Pathfinder · **Joined:** Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:35 pm **Posts:** 587

Wow! There ain't nothin' like slide photos!

Re my note above---here is a link to TL mentioning the duck art in Tokyo. It is written in present tense so it is contemporaneous to the publication of the book in 1943.

https://books.google.com/books?id=nQpgp ... ck&f=false

Here is the wartime bio of the GRIPSHOLM...so the observer of the RD art was not a returning POW, but a US national...

From 1927 onwards, the Gripsholm was used as a cruise ship alongside transatlantic crossings. From 1942 to 1946, the United States Department of State chartered Gripsholm as an exchange and repatriation ship, carrying Japanese[3] and German nationals to exchange points where she then picked up US and Canadian citizens (and British married to Americans or Canadians) to bring home to the USA and Canada. In this service she sailed under the auspices of the International Red Cross, with a Swedish captain and crew. The ship made 12 round trips, carrying a total of 27,712 repatriates. Exchanges took place at neutral ports; at Lourenço Marques in Mozambique or Mormugoa in Portuguese India with the Japanese, and Stockholm or Lisbon with the Germans.

Maty12 · **Joined:** Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:11 pm **Posts:** 74

Man, I love this place, you guys always manage to dig up some great info.

Maty12 · **Joined:** Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:11 pm **Posts:** 74

RyanShort1 wrote:

Maty12 wrote:

Hey, guys, remember that B-25 I posted a picture of that I thought was the Duck, but had those weird probes? Well, I found this picture of a B-25 fresh off the factory in Kansas with the same probes. Also, notice the demarcation lines, they're very low wavy ones. Would explain why some (Hari Kari-Er, for example) have some slight waves in part of the lines.

I'm not sure whether it's a B-25B or a C, since it has C navigator windows and C exhaust stacks, but lacks the engine warts and has the B-25B style nose section and cockpit. There's also the lack of a fixed MG in the nose. Maybe a late production B?

I have seen NO verified pictures of the Raiders' B-models with for-sure wavy demarcation on the underside paint schemes. Pretty sure that's a C or later model. Also, I don't think those are probes. They appear to be venturi tubes providing vacuum for instruments.

Ryan

But don't all Cs have the exhaust ejectors (Or engine warts, as you so call them)? Besides, the cockpit and nose window arrangements sure make it look like a B. As for the demarcation, I think all had them straight, but a picture of Hari-Kari-Er shows a rather odd demarcation line on the right side:

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:19 pm

Maty12 wrote:

RyanShort1 wrote:

Maty12 wrote:

Hey, guys, remember that B-25 I posted a picture of that I thought was the Duck, but had those weird probes? Well, I found this picture of a B-25 fresh off the factory in Kansas with the same probes. Also, notice the demarcation lines, they're very low wavy ones. Would explain why some (Hari Kari-Er, for example) have some slight waves in part of the lines.

I'm not sure whether it's a B-25B or a C, since it has C navigator windows and C exhaust stacks, but lacks the engine warts and has the B-25B style nose section and cockpit. There's also the lack of a fixed MG in the nose. Maybe a late production B?

I have seen NO verified pictures of the Raiders' B-models with for-sure wavy demarcation on the underside paint schemes. Pretty sure that's a C or later model. Also, I don't think those are probes. They appear to be venturi tubes providing vacuum for instruments.

Ryan

But don't all Cs have the exhaust ejectors (Or engine warts, as you so call them)? Besides, the cockpit and nose window arrangements sure make it look like a B. As for the demarcation, I think all had them straight, but a picture of Hari-Kari-Er shows a rather odd demarcation line on the right side:

No. The C models have slightly different exhausts, but not the exhaust warts. Pretty sure that started with the D. The demarcation line on Hari Karier looks more like a non-completely-straight spray line rather than a wavy sharp demarcation - and is ONLY visible in the bottom right of the picture you linked there.

dirtysidedown430 · **Joined:** Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:36 pm **Posts:** 336

Looks like they painted over some id numbers wonder if they took out the id plates too

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:57 pm

dirtysidedown430 wrote:

Looks like they painted over some id numbers wonder if they took out the id plates too

Several of the planes had older markings painted over - including some from the War Maneuvers. Go to the http://www.Doolittleraider.com forum and the search feature will bring up some old discussions I participated in.

Ryan

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 7821

B? or C?

Maty12 · **Joined:** Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:11 pm **Posts:** 74

That's a B-25A. Very rare find, congratulations are in order. It shows a tail turret (Instead of a top and bottom one) and a long exhaust stack on the right, while Bs had short ones on the right.

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 7821

Why thank you Sir, but I must congratulate you for correctly identifying this particular B-25A. Nicely done.

M

Maty12 · **Joined:** Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:11 pm **Posts:** 74

Mark Allen M wrote:

Why thank you Sir, but I must congratulate you for correctly identifying this particular B-25A. Nicely done.

M

Thanks. You know, why don't we start a thread on B-25A pictures? They're hard to come by.

Pathfinder · **Joined:** Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:35 pm **Posts:** 587

I don't claim to be an expert on B-25s, even though it is my favorite, but.....

B-25 and B-25A had straight wings outboard of the engine. This plane has--to my weary eyes--a cocked "gull wing" out board which became standard on the B.

No navigator blister topside as on an A, but, it has a B antenna array.

"MISS HAP" is a straight B-25 which had her outboard wings changed out to later configuration....is this possibly an A that has been upgraded?

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