Red Tail Squadron on the move...

Warbirdnerd · **Joined:** Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:34 pm **Posts:** 2923

Thank you for the added information Doug,
I don’t see where I bashed anyone. I stated facts. When I voted for the move to Dallas I took the CEO at his word that it would not mean taking airplanes from successful wings/squadrons. That turned out not to be the case…

Your input would have been more helpful before my post, but you left informing the support crew of the final determination of the RedTail’s future up to someone else.

I totally understand the desire to move the Redtail and the pressure you must have been under to make it happen. You guys have 40 Million dollars to raise! I truly do hope long term success for the Redtail the CAF as a whole.

My involvement in warbirds goes back over 25 years and to me it as much about the people I crewed with as much as it was about the history and the planes. The core group had a collection of 25+ flyable warbirds fly west on us many years ago. We were fine before the Redtail and we will be fine without.
That does not mean we have to happy with how it happened.

Meanwhile, hopefully the rest of the CAF is watching and learning…

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:15 pm

So, when is the CAF HQ going after Sentimental Journey ? or the So Cal Zero, Spitfire, F8F ? The Dixie Wing SBD ? The P-39 or P-63 ?
Saying the Squadron would do better in Dallas seems to me as HQ is forgetting who the Squadron is, it is not the plane, it is the PEOPLE who make up the squadron, THEY are the HEART and SOUL of the Squadron. I look at the B-24 as a example, When Gary took on the task to convert it from a C-87 to B-24, I did not see many people there helping him, they say it is the B-24/B-29 squadron, but it always appeared to me that the B-24 was always a oh yeah, it is ours too. That plane is what it is because of 1 person, not a squadron. Sentimental Journey is what she is because of the people who poured their heart and soul into her, do you really think she would be in the condition she is in, or as successful if she was managed by a group that did not have a vested interest in her ? It will be the same way with the P-51, HQ will have the plane, but they will not have the soul of the plane.

While I don't have a dog in this fight, I gave up on the CAF decades ago, I do understand about pouring you soul into a plane and a group.

JimH · **Posted:** Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:15 pm

Texas Raiders is much closer. You can't have a "Super Base" without a draw. It will have to be stocked with Fifi, Lil, a 17, 25, 51, T-6...and the Navy contingent.

My .02

Jim

sdennison · **Posted:** Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:15 am

OK. so "time out Green Bay" Where does it make a difference where the aircraft is based? The airplane has been homed in Minnesota and had created one of the best stories the CAF has going. Now, for some reason, the story needs to be based in Dallas? Does that impact more you children or other interested people over the base in MN? This is so much BS in so many ways.

There happens to be a P-47 built and crashed by the same group "up for assignment" with an estimated $600K budget to finish. I could put a group together to do this but then find that when done, oh we want it in Texas? Sorry Chaps. Math doesn't work. Thanks to all in MN for their love and hard work. Just shows to go, No matter where you are, there you go. Sucks.

k5083 · **Posted:** Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:55 am

Matt's "hit list" is the one I would have put together. If the CAF assembled all of that at Dallas, they would have a nice attraction and a guaranteed great annual airshow. Almost - dare I say it? - a recreation of Harlingen, but much closer to what passes for civilization in Texas.

But we can see the costs of this approach.

Since a few folks have offered general platitudes here as if they were some sort of answer, I will offer one as well. Whenever you're putting your money and sweat into an airplane that somebody else owns and controls, it might be a good idea to live in the moment; find the rewards and satisfaction at the time you're involved. Don't view it as some investment in a future relationship with the airplane, because the owner doesn't owe that to you and you may have to say good-bye tomorrow.

At the margin, some people will not find in-the-moment satisfaction enough to justify their participation, and will drop out. CAF knows that. Let's hope they've calculated the costs and benefits correctly.

August

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 7826

k5083 wrote:

Whenever you're putting your money and sweat into an airplane that somebody else owns and controls, it might be a good idea to live in the moment; find the rewards and satisfaction at the time you're involved. Don't view it as some investment in a future relationship with the airplane, because the owner doesn't owe that to you and you may have to say good-bye tomorrow.

Quite correct unless the owner happens to be dues paying members. Then I'd say there's at least allowance for disappointment.

Obergrafeter · **Posted:** Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:05 pm

Unbelievable............another nail in the coffin. Move an airplane from a vibrant growing community to an airport that the community doesn't even want!! You members that keep saying, "At least it's not our plane they want" better stand back and wait for the other shoe to fall! The only salvation for the CAF is to get rid of Steve Brown before he bankrupts the organization like the late 1980s did.

Red Tail · **Joined:** Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:56 pm **Posts:** 138

Bryan nailed it. The Squadron’s move to Dallas is not the issue for me. If it will somehow benefit the DAB and Squadron, then it’s a good thing however, right now all of that is nothing more than hope based on need. Not that it matters but I predict the move will benefit to the DAB, not the Red Tail Squadron. What left me feeling pretty empty was the lack of promised transparency, not having any input in the decision and the complete unwillingness to come to a compromise deal that could have kept the Minnesota based members as an integral sub-group of the Squadron. We were not asking for a vote, just a seat at the table so our input could be heard. How the message was finally delivered to us also lacked the professionalism the situation required. The Squadrons T-34 was also swept up in the vortex in spite of the plans and sponsorship already in motion for it. Again, I’ve done my part and have zero regrets. I would do it again under the right circumstances. I will likely still try and contribute to the Squadron if and when I can.

For what it’s worth I too voted for the move knowing full well the CAF was never going to grow beyond where it is today being headquartered in Midland. That said, after the move was voted in and the “Vision” for the new Air Base was unveiled, I was pretty reluctant and still am. There are a lot of major aviation attractions out there right now that are struggling to survive or worse. With rare exceptions such as Planes of Fame, Chino, it seems only those museums or aviation attractions supported by sugar daddies or with tax payers’ dollars are the only ones not feeling pinched. Given the historical data, is such a grand building and installation the wisest course? I understand part of the airbase ideology is founded on keeping the CAF a viable business in the event flying warbirds comes to an end. Since it’s the chosen path I truly and sincerely hope it works out for the best and that my apprehension is unfounded.

Regards,
John

sdennison · **Posted:** Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:47 am

DougR wrote:

Bryan

If there is anger, point it at me, not CAF HQ....

First off, I appreciate all the efforts of the small group of dedicated volunteers that have been dedicated to the airplane in Minnesota.

Secondly, it would be much more convenient for me if the airplane continued to live in St Paul...

But here is the deal, the Red Tail Squadron Mission is not about what you or I want, or even what Don would want. The pertinent question, is where can the Squadron be most effective...

Since the second rebuild and the advent of the Rise Above Exhibit the success of the operation has exceeded everyone's expectations in every metric. I think I can say with little doubt that Don would be proud... I can also tell you Don was always pushing to take everything to the next level.

It would be most convenient for me if the airplane lived in St Paul, and did out and back airshows from St Paul and sold a few rides to pay the bills.... But again, this is not about what I want, you want, or what any one person wants. It is about where the unit, can have the greatest impact.

The organization has progressed from a small entrepreneurial operation that scratched and scraped to rebuild an airplane and build a traveling exhibit which has had a major impact on the way Warbirds are used to inspire young people and educate them about the stories of WWII and the role that airpower played in our freedom.

Steve laid out a case for why the RTS should be in Dallas at HQ and it is very hard to argue with his logic. If the leadership had said no, I am pretty sure the RTS would have remained in St Paul, but that would have been in the interest of a very small group of people, not the RTS...

So if you have hard feelings and want to bash someone, bash me. I did not make the decision myself, we had a meeting and while it was a hard decision, the right thing to do was clear, and I was a driver in that decision. But we, the sponsor group, made the decision, not Steve Brown, not CAF HQ. And I am pretty certain that if Don were here, he would have supported it.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal

Doug, any chance that full story and justification for the move to HQ will be shared with the rest of us?

sdennison · **Posted:** Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:48 am

Red Tail wrote:

kpardon wrote:

While I am sympathetic to the OPs feelings of anger and loss over HQs request to base the airplane in Dallas, I need to ask a question.

Why did you pour your heart and soul into the airplane in the first place?

I hope it was because you wanted to help fulfill Don's mission -- because of your work this airplane and the story it tells impacts children all over the country. I have watched it happen and it's a wonderful thing. That was the goal. You should be thrilled about that accomplishment and proud of yourself and your squadron members. You did your job so well they now want to use it as the cornerstone of this new facility. Do you think Don would be proud about that and grateful to all of you?

When we make these things about ourselves we lose sight of the real reason we do the things we do. Your hard work and accomplishments will never be diminished just because you can't drive over to the airport and rub on the airplane.

It's interesting -- the Tuskegee Airmen did their job so well they were specially requested by others to escort them on bomb runs. See the parallel?

And, again, I get the heartache. Just offering another perspective.

Mrs. Pardon,

Having been the Crew Chief for the Squadron since December, 2003 I feel at least somewhat qualified to answer the questions you put to Bryan.

We did this in part to fulfill Don’s vision of what could happen if one applies logic, action and feeling to human obstacles. In many cases a better world is created, even if it’s just one small part of the world. With their permission, full support and cooperation, we used the heck out of the example the Tuskegee Airmen made during World War Two. No one could find a better model. As a side benefit it also proved to be one of our nation’s best attempts to date at recognizing the efforts and accomplishments of the Tuskegee Airmen. However, at least for me, by far the largest part of the mission, which is all too often lost, is its mission of mentoring at risk youth. This nation suffers a dearth of quality youth guidance. By all accounts we more than succeeded in our goals and without question are thrilled by the results. I sincerely hope and pray for continued success.

The crew that spent five years putting the airplane together and kept it mission ready, with a perfect record for another six years in operation asked for nothing in return other than to continue in support of its mission in the way we best knew how; maintaining her in mission ready condition. To give you an idea of the level of dedication, for some it was a near fulltime job stacked on top of a normal 40 hour a week job…all as volunteers. Nobody ever leveled any serious complaints other than being tired…a good kind of tired. We believed in what we were doing. We took Mr. Brown at his word and in so were fully prepared to continue to supporting the Squadrons mission. This goal was cut short for no valid reason. With only minor concessions from each party we could have easily supported the Squadron and the DAB at the same time by working under the model we had developed and proven successful over our six years of operation. This apparently was not enough to satisfy.

This airplane was never about “Us” as you so incorrectly assume we felt it was. Each member of the team was indeed completely selfless in their contributions. Rather, they took a great deal of pride and ownership in the airplane and its mission. We are fully aware, and justifiably proud of the fact that our mark has been indelibly left on the Squadron. No matter where “Red” is, as long as it’s out there, so are we. It’s the one saving grace in this situation. There are very raw feelings right now because we had so much more to give and were willing and ready to follow through. Make no mistake Mrs. Pardon, that is the very heart wrenching part of this story. While CAF Sr. Management managed to get its way, at the same time it’s proven to me it has lost touch with the human element which is really what the CAF is all about…human beings, not airplanes ma’am, people. In its lustful grab it’s lost a comparatively youthful group of world class fabricators, troubleshooters and mechanics which is not at all in keeping with what is continuously preached to the membership as the thing to be doing.

How do I think Don would feel about this? I’m very glad you asked. On Thursday of this week I had lunch with a very good friend of mine, who incidentally was one of Dons longtime friends, whose friendship predated their days with the CAF. When I asked my lunch partner what he thought Don would do or think in this situation, without hesitating he said, “Don would have put a stop to it. The project, mission and now Squadron has always been Minnesota based, born, bread and largely supported. He would have insured it remain as such. He would have worked tirelessly until he found a solution amicable to all involved”. Don was a man of unmatched moral character, wit, business savvy, intelligence, filled with compassion and feeling for his fellow man from the greatest among us to the least. If you fully understand and grasp that Mrs. Pardon, my question to you would be, do you think Don would be proud of the CAF in this instance? There are a great deal of things that went on “Behind the scenes” to force this issue to the benefit of CAF Sr. Management you are not privileged to, and will not become known to you by me. Moral character is still a creed I hold true to as well.

Honestly, I don’t see any relationship in the parallel you attempted to draw. As I see it, the Airmen did their job and were rewarded with more work that had greater meaning and value, not stripped of their means to contribute in a meaningful way…

Regards,
John Beyl

Extremely well stated. :drink3:

sdennison · **Posted:** Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:08 am

So, let's break down what the CAF seems to be showing in action. Assign aircraft to local Wings for care and restoration, some extreme cases requiring incredible talent, dedication and monetary contribution, prove yourself a successful Wing through operations and dedication. Then have your aircraft is reassigned to HQ for a greater need? Now, is it put in a static to attract a local crowd? Does it continue in the lifestyle to which it is accustomed with a new "family" to care for its needs? Seems a lot like an orphanage letting you adopt an infant. Then when you get through the terrible two's, middle school, high school and all the related costs and emotions, someone knocks on your door and tells you that the adoption agency has a greater need for your child and you must relinquish custody. Regardless of the outcome if he/she becomes a pillar of the community or homeless from that point on, how many new adoptive parents are going to enter this program? What about all the other foster families? How long will they hang on? If I am a bad parent, does that lessen the risk of losing my child? Maybe the only successful parents will be the ones whose kids are not so desirable? Where was the process, options, communication, alternatives? Were there two winners in this or just one?

Sounds like that if going forward, more Wings will be tapped for their showcase aircraft, there needs to be some form of compensation for their losses. Have no idea of what that would be but I doubt any wings will be standing up to huge restoration projects with the great risk that at the end, their plane will be re-assigned for a greater good.

Disappointed for sure. :evil:

Red Tail · **Joined:** Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:56 pm **Posts:** 138

Scott,

I understand your frustration as you and your small wing have put a lot of effort into the airplanes entrusted to your care. I learned a long time ago, the hard way, that when dealing with any private museum/institution (including the CAF) where it’s possible to contribute time, effort energy and even monetary resources, it’s wise to frequently remind oneself that whatever it is we’re dealing with, in this case vintage airplanes, it doesn’t belong to us and our involvement can be terminated at any time for any reason. This has a downside in that true passion is not allowed to flourish through feelings of ownership.

For many years the CAF has been successful at enabling the passion by telling units very basically, if you’re successful in your efforts to rebuild, maintain and fly one of their assets, the airplane under your care is not at risk of being reassigned. With the advent of the Airbase philosophy, I sense a paradigm shift coming in that attitude. In spite of promises to the contrary, gradually I see small units having their aircraft reassigned to larger “Bases”. If this proves true, how well it works out for the CAF in the future will be interesting to watch unfold. In any case I will wish them well and I truly mean it. Because the rewards I’ve already expounded on were there for me, I have no regrets being involved to the level I was or its cost to me.

The plans for Red Tail, so far as I know, will be business as usual touring the country, very likely at an increased pace with more stops. To be fair, I saw trouble coming (Not the DAB trouble we’re discussing) as far back as the spring of 2012 when the MX crew was getting pushed harder and harder to keep up with the demands placed on us by the aircrafts’ increasingly busy and growing schedule. We were in the process of dealing with that. Skip ahead to a week or so ago when we were asked to perform all of the airplanes “Off season” needs in well less than 60 days which included the upcoming holidays. There is no way that’s possible for a member driven, all-volunteer crew. Our hands were forced at that point. End of my public elaboration regarding the subject.

In Red Tail’s case, there is no infrastructure in place in Dallas to care for it. AirCorp Aviation has been contracted to perform the winter maintenance on it this year. I worked with them to ensure Red will fall under their care for at least the 2015 season. At least for the short term I know the old girl will be kindly treated.

Regards,
John

wendovertom · **Posted:** Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:44 am

Sad. Another lesson in how not to do things when you have a difficult decision to make - communication is essential. I guess I should be glad that the Utah Wing has 'only' a stearman and a Beech SNB - nothing rare and 'sexy'

Tom P.

Warbirdnerd · **Joined:** Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:34 pm **Posts:** 2923

This goes deeper than just the "sexy" it includes "common" aircraft too. Ask around about the 3 T-34s that were donated to the CAF BECAUSE of the Redtail Squadron. Did you ever see them in Dispatch as available for assignment? I did not, they may have been, but I sure did not see it. Two of them ended up at other Wings. I wonder if there strings were attached to those assignments...
I do know a group of local sponsors had been lined up for the T-34 assigned to the RTS, including Don’s own brother and son. Those two along with another Squadron member, developed a business plan similar to the one the RTS uses with its intended focus being organizations such as the Boys and Girls Clubs of America. They had the airplane pulled out from under them too... These were affluent people who believed in and were committed to the cause. Out like yesterday’s old coffee stained newspaper.

I can only hope members of other Wings/Squadrons are watching and learning, as for me, my days of being a CAF member are over and I don’t see that changing.

Obergrafeter · **Posted:** Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:00 pm

It only took 35 years to get enough of the CAF. You know some of the sugar's that were pulled before, but the last couple of years under the dictator was enough for me!

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