A trend towards more non-authentic schemes? ...

[Jack Cook]

In regards to the JE on the side of the Madras Maiden, that was done by Mr. Erickson's
grandson to honor the man who raised him, taught him how to fly, and has entrusted the legacy of the Erickson Aircraft Collection to his care,

I asked Brad Pilgrim what he thought a year ago and he approved of the name change so, that's all I really needed to hear!

[Brad]

I asked Brad Pilgrim what he thought a year ago and he approved of the name change so, that's all I really needed to hear!

Lookie there Jack! I finally made the big time!

I was honored that Lyle asked for my opinion and I was happy to give it. I really liked the idea of honoring all those that were involved with the B-17s at Madras during the war versus a specific crew or airplane. That being said, I'm a Texan and have been seeing Chuckie all my life. She was the first B-17 I ever rode in. I would have been quite happy for her to stay marked as she was. But time changes things and I'm very happy with how she turned out. From what I have seen so far the folks at the Erickson Aircraft Collection are a class act and the airplanes are in good hands.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm just thankful that there are still a few wealthy individuals, willing to spend their fortunes on airplanes. I appreciate that they do this so people like me can enjoy the fruits of their labors.

I wish more people would just be thankful for that.

[Chris Brame]

WOW, quite a bit of conversation on the naming of the Madras Maiden.

Well, I'm the fella that came up with the name and developed & choose the nose art.

If you have any questions, please feel free to direct them to me.

- Lyle Jansma

Hi Mr. Jansma,
One question: Do you have any wartime photos of the B-17s at Madras? Reason being most USAAF training bases were assigned a one- or two-letter code that would be carried on the aircraft. Since the Maiden will be representing the base, would you consider adding the base code letter/s to it? Note that no other current B-17s, static or flying, are carrying training base codes on them, so this would be a unique form of remembrance for Madras AAF.
I wish the museum and 44-8543 many successful years to come.
-CB

[Chappie]

Great post Lyle. I never knew Madras was a training base, good point about honoring a base and a community rather than a single crew or aircraft. I've often wondered what I'd do if I ever owned a warbird and after seeing Taigh's Harpoon, McKenna's Mustang, and Yagen's Wildcat I think I'd leave as delivered from the factory.


Chappie

[TAdan]

Lyle, thank you for explaining the story behind the markings.

[Mark Allen M]

Thx again Lyle, appreciate the response and all the best to you and the city of Madras. I certainly respect your decisions, but I've never been one to succumb to someone else's decisions where I may respectfully disagree. I'm well aware that my thoughts mean nothing to you and your folks up there in Madras and that's fine. I just hope you can somewhat respect mine and we all move on. The honoring of Madras is not what I have as a problem at all, never was. It's the presentation that concerned my thoughts. I think we can respectfully agree to disagree on that and live peacefully from here on.

I wish more people would just be thankful for that.

I'm thankful, seems most everyone else here are quite thankful as well. Being thankful or not was never the issue here and for those who misunderstand that are obviously not getting what this thread was mean't to be.

A general question: Is in frowned upon to express opinions about warbirds on this forum if those opinions are respectful and tasteful to content (I shouldn't have to explain that to grown ups) even if at times those very respectful and tasteful opinions may be unpopular and contrary to what a warbird owner may think or like to hear? No dramatic head trip here, just wondering.

If so I have a lot more old photos to post.

[tulsaboy]

Thanks for the explaination Lyle. Welcome to WIX! I know that we would love to know more about the plans for the collection, and would love to see some more photos as you get them out and about.
kevin

[mustangdriver]

I'll go ahead an chime in here, because I have no problem being not popular. They built just shy of 13,000 B-17's. You are saying that there is no deserving WWII veteran that lives in the area out there that could have been honored by having his aircraft recreated? I love the whole attitude toward "paint nazis" or as I call them people that get it right. Don't sit and pretend that having a WWII vet's scheme recreated isn't one of the most powerful things you can do to say thank you. Don't pretend that it doesn't mean the world to them. We have such a short time left with our WWII vets that now is the time to get it right. I think that Daisy Duke is fine for a car show, not on something like this.

[lmritger]

Hi Lyle, thanks for weighing in.

Renaming the ship to honor the community is understandable and a very nice gesture. It will surely lead to superb marketing opportunities for the collection which will also benefit the greater Madras community- again, a great idea. The presentation of the nose art style itself is much more "modern" than I care for, but that's strictly a personal opinion, and in no way should that be construed as a ding on Gary's work as he is an artist of fearsome talent and the end result is undeniably of high quality.

I'll say up front that I am fully aware that my opinions are worth less than a bucket of warm spit to the ownership group, and that's fine- I'm a historian, not an A&P or pilot (although not for lack of desire), and there is no expectation that any group or individual should do things just because I'd like to see them done a certain way- I might be somewhat on the OCD side, but I'm certainly not delusional!

Having said that, what I find most regrettable is the decision to "personalize" the aircraft in combination with yet another set of 381st BG/ 1st Air Division tail group markings and spurious Group codes. If red Group markings were desired as emblematic of Erickson's business, there's always the 95th BG (Square B - red diagonal stripe on starboard wing, red aft half of the fin/rudder assembly), 96th BG (Square C - two large red horizontal stripes on the fin/rudder, two chordwise red stripes on the starboard wing), or the 385th BG's striking red checkerboard covering the entire vertical fin with a red stripe on each wing. Any of these would have been a terrific choice and a great opportunity to offer a little reflected glory to those otherwise forgotten units. And more to the point, changing the unit ID from any of the 381st's codes to the owner's initials strikes me as over the top and a regression (to put it mildly) in terms of historic authenticity among extant airworthy B-17s. Note that at no point has anyone suggested that the aircraft's ACTUAL service history should take precedence... the markings of a stateside Fort just won't have the same impact with airshow audiences, even one finished as an actual Madras AAF aircraft.

Jack Erickson has every right to be immensely proud of the fantastic collection he has put together, and the new facility at Madras is an incredible asset to the local community- the collection is already one of the finest in the US, and his efforts to keep these aircraft airworthy are laudable and deeply appreciated. But even so, speaking as a historian, the decision to personalize the B-17 in such a fashion is regrettable and disappointing.

Best regards,

Lynn

[Nathan]

I'll go ahead an chime in here, because I have no problem being not popular. They built just shy of 13,000 B-17's. You are saying that there is no deserving WWII veteran that lives in the area out there that could have been honored by having his aircraft recreated? I love the whole attitude toward "paint nazis" or as I call them people that get it right. Don't sit and pretend that having a WWII vet's scheme recreated isn't one of the most powerful things you can do to say thank you. Don't pretend that it doesn't mean the world to them. We have such a short time left with our WWII vets that now is the time to get it right. I think that Daisy Duke is fine for a car show, not on something like this.

[StangStung]

Lyle, thanks for participating here. As you can see its a lively and opinionated group, but we all share a great love if warbirds - which is where the passion comes through. I'm sure you can appreciate that. I look forward to your future posts.

[StangStung]

I'll go ahead an chime in here, because I have no problem being not popular. They built just shy of 13,000 B-17's. You are saying that there is no deserving WWII veteran that lives in the area out there that could have been honored by having his aircraft recreated? I love the whole attitude toward "paint nazis" or as I call them people that get it right. Don't sit and pretend that having a WWII vet's scheme recreated isn't one of the most powerful things you can do to say thank you. Don't pretend that it doesn't mean the world to them. We have such a short time left with our WWII vets that now is the time to get it right. I think that Daisy Duke is fine for a car show, not on something like this.

Are you still the same mustang driver from page four, or has someone hijacked your account?

[SaxMan]

IIRC, wasn't it purported that Madras Maiden (ex-Chuckie) may have seen service with the 486th BG near the end of hostilities in World War II. That was why "Chuckie" was done up in 486th markings? Was that proven to be incorrect?

Lyle - thank you for taking the time to address our group here.

[lmritger]

SaxMan, my understanding is that Bill Hospers found a way to incorporate his initials into the aircraft using an actual wartime aircraft: the square W for the 486th representing "William", and the individual aircraft letter "H" for Hospers. I stand to be corrected on that, but it makes sense.

And you know, taking that approach we could have seen Madras Maiden in 351st BG markings... triangle J (for Jack), individual aircraft letter E (for Erickson), with a red tail stripe for the Group marking. That would have worked really well- yes, "Pink Lady" carries 351st markings, but she's in France and won't ever be seen over here.

*shrug*

Lynn

[mustangdriver]

Alot can be lost in the tone of writing things here. Let me better explain my statement. While we still have some WWII vets around I would have held off on this scheme and used a hometown hero scheme. Then used this scheme down the road. I am among the group of folks thankful that the owner keeps her flying and not only that shares his collection. His Thunderbolt spent alot of time in Pittsburgh. I hope that helps