Rickenbacker's B-17

[Left Seat]

This all started with the thread on recovering an SBD in Lake Michigan and the legal obstacles to recover it.
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=53334

In short, if the wreck has a Navy number on it, no matter if it is on land or in the water… it is considered verboten.

If the wreck has AAF numbers, it is considered abandoned and is subject to protection laws of the land upon which it rests (e.g. National Park Service Law 36CFR2.1, National Historic Preservation Act of 1966, and/or state/local laws).

Then there is the subject of the wreck as a “grave site”.

[Left Seat]

My first thought was the location and recovery of World War I ace, Captain Edward "Eddie" V. Rickenbacker’s B-17 that had water landed with eight survivors:

It is not located in US waters and not a grave site.

The story goes something like this:

Captain William Cherry, Jr.’s B-17 was supposed to fly Captain "Eddie" Rickenbacker from Hawaii to Port Moresby (with a fuel stop at Canton airfield on Kanton Island, in the Phoenix Islands).

Rickenbacker’s mission was to briefly tour of the Pacific theater to review conditions, operations, and to personally deliver a secret message from President Roosevelt to rebuke General MacArthur.

The bomber "went off course due to a navigation error due to an out-of-true octant", ran out of fuel, and was ditched at sea, October 21, 1942. Crew and passengers survived the water landing.

It is thought that Captain Cherry overshot Kanton Island by at least 100 miles to the southwest.

After 8 days adrift, the eight survivors dined on a seagull that landed on Rickenbacker's head.

Rickenbacker and two others were rescued by the pilot of a Navy Kingfisher, off the coast of Nukufetau in Tuvalu, 500 miles away from Kanton, after being adrift for 21-24 days. Seven of the eight were eventually rescued. One died on the ninth day at sea.

http://www.historynet.com/eddie-rickenbacker-and-six-other-people-survive-a-b-17-crash-and-three-weeks-lost-in-the-pacific-ocean.htm
http://www.janeresture.com/rickenbacker/

There are 3 period stories about the water landing:
Rickenbacker's book: "Seven Came Through"
James C. Whittaker 's (water landing survivor) book: "We Thought We Heard The Angels Sing"
Life Magazine: "Eddie Rickenbacker Tells his Own Story", three part series, 1943

Last edited by Left Seat on Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:37 pm, edited 13 times in total.

[Left Seat]

i thought that b17 went in hard nose down and no survivors?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=53334&start=15

Joe Baugher's website (rev. June 1, 2014) currently lists this:
"40-3089 (394th BS, 5th BG) lost Oct 2, 1942 due to mechanical trouble on routine flight [out] of Bellows Field. All 9 crew killed. MACR 802 and 900."

"This plane is often listed as the plane lost at sea (431th BS, 11th BG) Oct 21, 1942, central Pacific, with the World War I ace Edward “Eddie” V. Rickenbacker being aboard. Rickenbacker and crew were rescued by Navy planes 24 days later. MACR 16348 was written after the war and does not list the serial number of the plane or give the date of loss."
http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1940.html Rev. June 1, 2014
http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/usafreferences.html

MARC (Missing Air Crew Report)
MACR 802, Date: 421002, pilot: Birchard, Quentin R, plane: B-17D. ser. no. 40-3089, location: Diamond Head 80 MI S, HI. (last radio contact).
MACR 900, Date: 421002, pilot: Birchard, Quentin R, plane: B-17D. ser. no. 40-3089, location: Diamond Head 80 MI S, HI. (last radio contact).
http://www.accident-report.com/MACR/m1942.html

There are a lot of internet postings listing Rickenbacker's plane as B-17D 40-3089 ... Is this an error being cited over and over again?

Last edited by Left Seat on Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:40 pm, edited 9 times in total.

[Left Seat]

B-17D 40-3089 (squadron number 52/5B) was originally assigned to the 5th Bombardment Group, 23rd Bomb Squadron at Hickam Field and was a survivor of the December 7th attack on Pearl Harbor.

Last edited by Left Seat on Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Left Seat]

So, if B-17D 40-3089 was last heard from 80 miles south of Oahu, where did it go down? Did it have a hard or soft landing?

If Rickenbacker’s B-17 was not B-17D 40-3089, what was the model and serial number?

Got a spare side scanning sonar? Here it the place to start:
http://www.navworld.com/navcerebrations/rickenbacker/braingame1.htm

I have a feeling that someone will probably find Rickenbacker’s B-17 while looking for Earhart's Electra.

[tom d. friedman]

rickenbacker wasn't exactly a morale booster on the raft. he chastised & harangued the crew for the ditching & their 3 week plight of survival at sea many times. the kingfisher pilot had all the men laying on the wings, & taxied the kingfisher an incredible number of miles in rough seas. when they reached the ship & all were off loaded the kingfisher was shelled & sunk because it was so beat up.

[Left Seat]

I'm sure that I am not the only one that is confused by the identification of Rickenbacker's B-17.

Was it or was it not B-17D 40-3089?

Joe Baugher has a web site with information about American military aircraft. According to him the airplane Eddie Rickenbacker was on was a Boeing B-17D Flying Fortress and the USAAF serial number was 40-3089. Hope this helps. -from January 2, 2009

http://pub44.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3717331174&frmid=375&msgid=994826&cmd=show

More info: the B-17D was 40-3089 of the 5th Bomb Group, 7th Air force. The airplane that rescued him was U.S. Navy Vought OS2U-2 Kingfisher, Bureau Number 2201. He was transferred to PT 26 of MTB Ron 1. -from January 9, 2009

http://pub44.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3717331174&frmid=375&msgid=996230&cmd=show

It gets a little old when people make statements and don't cite where they got their information... Grrr...!

I assume that Joe Baugher's June 1, 2014 revision is correct?

[Left Seat]

Here is an interesting article about the discovery of the 1952 wreck of a U.S. Air Force C-45 aircraft located in Lake Ontario in deep water off Oswego, New York. (posted July 8, 2014)

http://www.shipwreckworld.com/articles/usaf-plane-discovered-lake-ontario
http://www.stripes.com/news/us/explorers-find-wreckage-of-c-45-that-crashed-in-lake-ontario-in-1952-1.292419

News at 11:00... video of the submerged C-45:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw5ztGcNmos#t=11

WIX blog here:
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=53543

Stars and Stripes magazine claims that the Air Force still owns the plane.
Also, "Historic shipwrecks abandoned and embedded in New York State underwater lands belong to the people of the State of New York and are protected by state and federal law from unauthorized disturbance." "...Our money is in your pocket..."

So... if you want to go chase your own submerged plane wreck...
Underwater archaeology just got easier and cheaper:

DeepVision DE340 Side Scan Sonar System
http://deepvision.se/products/side-scan-sonars/
http://www.shipwreckworld.com/reviews/deepvision-de340-side-scan-sonar-review


VideoRay Pro IV ROV (remote operated vehicle)
http://www.videoray.com/homepage/professional-rovs/videoray-pro-4.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/757474-REG/VideoRay_ROV_SYS_EXP_X3_N_Explorer_X3_Economy_ROV.html
http://www.deepwater-rental.com/rental-equipment/SubSea-Tooling/Video-Ray-Pro-4-ROV



Some of you armchair explorers in the rust belt have to admit that a trip to the balmy, south pacific this winter... to sip coconut drinks... the one's with the little paper umbrellas... to fish, dive, and find an old submerged B-17D (or B-17E) sounds like fun?
As a consultation prize, you might find some stupid 'ol Lockheed or a PT boat?

Any takers?

Last edited by Left Seat on Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[Chris Brame]

There's also this B-17C, if you can find it:

(40-)2054 (38 RS, 11 BG) was one of the planes that arrived over Pearl Harbor Dec 7, 1941. Crashed 130 mi off
Oahu, Hawaii Jun 15, 1942. MACR 16123.

That's according to Baugher; Aviation Archaeology lists it the same with the notation KDTCoG (Killed, Ditching, Out of Gas).

[PinecastleAAF]

Not tring to poo poo the B-17's but you could take that rov thingy into some European lakes and possibly have better luck and also ditch those tropical drinks for some brewskis.

[Left Seat]

You’ve got a point.

I-400 and I-401 were both sunk off the southwest coast of Oahu at a depth of 2,300 ft and 2665 ft respectively.

B-17C (40-2054) went down due west of Oahu roughly 130-145 miles out. Its got to be in 4000 foot deep water.
A bit deeper than a mask and snorkel will take you.
With 2 men missing it’s a war grave.

I’m sure the claw on the ROV could be fitted with a drink holder.
As cold as the water is in Europe, you wouldn’t have to worry about refrigerating your beer.
Mark me down for a couple... as long as it's not Guinness.

[Left Seat]

You can get an idea for where Rickenbacker’s B-17 might have gone down.

He was picked up off the coast of Nukufetau in Tuvalu, 500 miles away from Kanton Island in the Phoenix Islands.
It is thought that Captain Cherry “overshot Kanton Island by at least 100 miles to the southwest”.

He must have drifted quite a ways on those life rafts.
200 miles southwest would put the crash somewhere between Kanton and McKean?



You can get an idea of the depth here:


Ballard found PT-109 about 1,200 feet straight down in the Blackett Strait, Solomon Islands.
I'm beginning to wonder if Rickenbacker's B-17 is located down deeper than that.

Hmmm... mark me down for a "6-pack"...
Europe is beginning to look better...

[Left Seat]

Older news:

The all volunteer BentProp Project has searched the seas off Palau for missing American planes shot down by the Japanese.

This group, associated with Scripps Institution of Oceanography and University of Delaware School of Marine Science (supported by the US Office of Naval Research), travel to the Palau area every year.

They use a $300,000 remote environmental sampling unit called Remus. It is 5-foot-long, 81-pound autonomous underwater vehicle (AUV) with sensors, cameras, electronics, and other gear designed to survey the ocean.



http://www.cnet.com/news/the-cutting-edge-tech-behind-the-hunt-for-lost-wwii-planes/

http://www.km.kongsberg.com/ks/web/nokbg0240.nsf/AllWeb/D241A2C835DF40B0C12574AB003EA6AB?OpenDocument

News at 11:00:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5aPKt6lwDI

Sounds like an interesting way to get some continuing ed college credit.

[gemmer]

A B-17D was ditched off the coast of Zamboanga, Mindanao, in Dec. of 1941. I wonder if it's been considered for recovery.

Duane

[Left Seat]

That would be 40-3086 (19th BG) ditched, Dec 10, 1941 according to Joe Baugher's web site and your posting:

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=113548

Mindanao is the island in the bottom of the red box that looks like an elephant.
Zamboanga is the peninsula that looks like the elephant's trunk.


Looks like 2-400 feet deep close to the shore then drops away pretty quick to 4000 feet

Last edited by Left Seat on Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.