Biplane crash at Thunder Over Solano Airshow

CoastieJohn · **Joined:** Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:37 pm **Posts:** 1380

Matt Gunsch wrote:

CoastieJohn wrote:

Quote:

.....and personnel arrived at the airplane about 3 to 4 minutes after the accident, and extinguished the fire.

Strictly addressing timing....as I recall from my CG aviation firefighting testing, I believe it was respond within 1 minute and be on scene within 3 minutes. Again, I'd have to look in my notes but those times are what come to mind when we were tested on it.

There is a difference between sitting in the station and getting a alarm vs being at a airshow. At Oshkosh during the show, the fire equipment is manned and ready to respond as soon as something goes wrong. Look at how long it took them to get water onto the Corsair after it hit Howard and broke apart.

The fire Dept at the base screwed up big time. They should have been forward of the crowd line and ready to roll anytime there was a plane in the air.

Two different airports and two different airshows. Based on what I seen in the tape, I too thought what took so long? However, without knowing the pre-mishap plan for this particular airport and this particular airshow and who was supposed to be positioned where and when......I would suggest it's premature to single anyone or anything out to place blame on until all the facts come out. For example (hypothetical)....if the airshow ground safety boss directed the fire dept to have crash truck #2 be positioned at location X and crash truck #2 was at location X and responded correctly to the mishap, I would not blame crash truck #2 nor the fire dept for a perceived slow response if they were where they were directed to be at.

Below is what the NTSB said from the original release already posted. On face value, I read it as the NTSB addressing the speculating spectators as to the response time. Not saying their (NTSB) statement is right or wrong....it's just how I interpreted what they stated after they reviewed the tapes. Their use of the word "however" is what stood out to me. In the final report that will come out, they may word it differently. We shall see.....

Quote:

There was speculation by spectators that it took too long for fire crews to arrive on scene of the fiery crash, however, the NTSB reported that a review of photographs and video footage indicated that the United State Air Force rescue and firefighting vehicles and personnel arrived at the airplane about 3 to 4 minutes after the accident, and extinguished the fire.

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Thu May 15, 2014 9:31 pm

CoastieJohn wrote:

Quote:

There was speculation by spectators that it took too long for fire crews to arrive on scene of the fiery crash, however, the NTSB reported that a review of photographs and video footage indicated that the United State Air Force rescue and firefighting vehicles and personnel arrived at the airplane about 3 to 4 minutes after the accident, and extinguished the fire.

And that is more than double the time it should have been, ask yourself if you were in that situation, is 4 minutes too long ? when at another show it is 1 1/2 minutes ? Can you hold your breath for 4 minutes ? can you survive in a fire for 4 minutes ?
Sorry, I don't buy it, the fire dept are supposed to be professionals, but it appears that the crew there was more interested in being with the crowd, than paying attention to what was going on.
If you were in a accident in front of some cops, should it take 4 minutes for them to get to you ?
It takes the fire Dept about 5 minutes to get to my house from the station, and that is just shy of 1 mile away, these guys were within sight of the crash.

Sorry, but I put the blame where it is due.

mustanglover · **Posted:** Fri May 16, 2014 11:08 am

4 minutes 11 seconds for the first small quick attack truck to arrive, the next full size ARFF truck arrived about 10 seconds later

Quote:

There was speculation by spectators that it took too long for fire crews to arrive on scene of the fiery crash, however, the NTSB reported that a review of photographs and video footage indicated that the United State Air Force rescue and firefighting vehicles and personnel arrived at the airplane about 3 to 4 minutes after the accident, and extinguished the fire.

Robbie Stuart · **Posted:** Fri May 16, 2014 11:17 am

mustanglover wrote:

4 minutes 11 seconds for the first small quick attack truck to arrive, the next full size ARFF truck arrived about 10 seconds later

Quote:

There was speculation by spectators that it took too long for fire crews to arrive on scene of the fiery crash, however, the NTSB reported that a review of photographs and video footage indicated that the United State Air Force rescue and firefighting vehicles and personnel arrived at the airplane about 3 to 4 minutes after the accident, and extinguished the fire.

At a loss for words watching that video and not understanding why someone was not doing something earlier, like at least get a couple guys under the tail, & help create some more room for escape, guess I'm just the kind of guy that act's on his feet.

Robbie

bdk · **Joined:** Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am **Posts:** 11330

Could switching off the engine have helped? It seemed like it was still ticking over after the plane had stopped.

airnutz · **Posted:** Fri May 16, 2014 1:02 pm

bdk wrote:

Could switching off the engine have helped? It seemed like it was still ticking over after the plane had stopped.

Yep, I saw the prop was still turning when first viewing the video and wondered if that was an indication he was unconscious. I thought one of the 1st things you do if you can is to kill the main electric supply. You may have a problem with fuel dripping on hot metal etc., but at least all pumps and most electric spark sources are minimized.

Ryan Harris · **Posted:** Fri May 16, 2014 1:36 pm

I'm not sure shutting down the engine would've mattered, unfortunately. The NTSB report says the fire started near the end of the slide. It doesn't help that the fuel tank is on top of the wing and had direct contact with the runway. It should also be remembered that Eddie's Stearman had a canopy that was hinged to open towards the right. The NTSB even says this would be nearly impossible to open under the circumstances.

One other thing to point out is that the NTSB does NOT at all say that they feel like a 4 minute response time was a reasonable amount. They simply point out that this was how long it took. The article posted made their own assumption that the NTSB seemed OK with this.

I hope ICAS makes a very hard effort to try to standardize safety procedures and pound it into airshow organizers heads that trucks should always be ready and waiting at show center. You never know if the end result could've been different, but at least he would've had a fighting chance had they been closer.

Here is the link to the actual NTSB preliminary: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief ... 0153&key=1

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 7879

FWIW and not to come across in any way negative or insinuating, but I wonder if airshow performers in general have an opinion or are allowed to give suggestions and advice as to where emergency vehicles and personnel should be stationed before they perform their routines. I'm NOT in either the airshow performer or airport fire & rescue business so I'm not sure what is discussed before such events, but I would guess if I were I would certainly be asking a lot of safety & emergency procedure questions and giving plenty of safely information and advice on my particular airplane to the folks in charge of airshow emergency procedures. I'm quite certain this IS discussed before a show but I wonder to how much length and I wonder how much influence a performer has on decisions regarding safety & rescue operations.

M

ignomini · **Posted:** Fri May 16, 2014 5:48 pm

I only have one data point, but when Jimmy Leeward hit the ground at Reno, emergency response vehicles, which were stationed in front of the crowd, between the pits and box seats were in motion within seconds. While they were only a few yards from the point of impact, what impresses my memory was the fact they were ready to move, and in a position where nothing would impede their progress. Everything seems obvious in retrospect, and there is the very real chance the emergency crews themselves could have been victims. Since that day, I've felt pretty stupid about all the previous years when I complained to myself about them being in the way of some photographs. I am now a great believer in having emergency responders in their gear, ready to move, and with nothing between them and the flight line.

mustanglover · **Posted:** Fri May 16, 2014 5:54 pm

I need to look at a current copy of NFPA 403 but I believe that the standard is that you should be applying water with the first truck at 3 minutes and the subsequent trucks should arrive at 30 second intervals. Keep in mind that this is for a unforeseen event at a typical airport. At an airshow where the ARFF trucks should be ready to go, I would think they should be on scene applying water within 1 minute and to me I would hope 30 seconds should be the desirable response anywhere on the active area of the airport while an airshow is in progress. It looks like Oshkosh can be anywhere within about 30 seconds.

mustanglover wrote:

4 minutes 11 seconds for the first small quick attack truck to arrive, the next full size ARFF truck arrived about 10 seconds later

Quote:

There was speculation by spectators that it took too long for fire crews to arrive on scene of the fiery crash, however, the NTSB reported that a review of photographs and video footage indicated that the United State Air Force rescue and firefighting vehicles and personnel arrived at the airplane about 3 to 4 minutes after the accident, and extinguished the fire.

Dudley Henriques · **Posted:** Fri May 16, 2014 6:06 pm

Mark Allen M wrote:

FWIW and not to come across in any way negative or insinuating, but I wonder if airshow performers in general have an opinion or are allowed to give suggestions and advice as to where emergency vehicles and personnel should be stationed before they perform their routines. I'm NOT in either the airshow performer or airport fire & rescue business so I'm not sure what is discussed before such events, but I would guess if I were I would certainly be asking a lot of safety & emergency procedure questions and giving plenty of safely information and advice on my particular airplane to the folks in charge of airshow emergency procedures. I'm quite certain this IS discussed before a show but I wonder to how much length and I wonder how much influence a performer has on decisions regarding safety & rescue operations.

M

ICAS is on this and a "Fast Facts" was issued today.
It's being dealt with on all levels.
Dudley Henriques

Nathan · **Posted:** Sat May 17, 2014 7:22 am

About the slow response team...a few years ago a plane crashed during the Geneseo airshow. The fire department had no idea of what happened. But two police officers on horses booked it from the crowd and were there before anybody else! :shock:

Nathan · **Posted:** Sat May 17, 2014 7:22 am

About the slow response team...a few years ago a plane crashed during the Geneseo airshow. The fire department had no idea of what happened. But two police officers on horses booked it from the crowd and were there before anybody else! :shock:

51fixer · **Posted:** Sat May 17, 2014 8:37 am

A post I made on another forum

The organizer and/or AFB personnel along with the FAA would determine beforehand where the emergency assets would be staged.
There is a performer asset and a spectator asset needed.
Any large gathering with long walking distances, hot weather and congestion will utilize EMT resources whether it is a 3K walk for Hunger or a spectator gathering for Nascar, Soccer or an Airshow. Its a given that EMT will have patients.
The Performer assets needed traditionally are near the main runway and ready to roll while acts are in the air. Why this setup was chosen and went against this emergency crew near the action area should be reviewed. But it was decided by management beforehand.
What I have experienced is with a designated runway and Emergency crews stationed near that runway you have an aiming point if you have an inflight emergency that gives you the time to be able to get back to that runway you know you will be close to the crews that can help.
Obviously in flight situations are full of variables and there isn't any way to predict them all but the aerobatics and flybys in a wavered show will be flown in a specific area which in this show seemed to be based on this runway.
The loss of the helicopter in Germany was unfortunate but usually the Air Medic role is mobile, once needed it can quickly move anywhere so that is one asset that can be parked off to the side.
It is the fire fighting equipment that needs to be ready to go at a moments notice, usual in gear except gloves and helmet/jacket and engine running or at least someone in the drivers seat ready to start.
Its a shame that it wasn't in a usable area to access the runway. Someone needs to answer for that and a review of policies that lead to these decisions is in order.
The Firefighting Personnel did their jobs the best they could. I wouldn't lay blame on them. Its the decision makers that need to be held accountable.

51fixer · **Posted:** Sat May 17, 2014 8:41 am

Waiver Application which has a box to describe Emergency Equipment you plan to provide as well as instructions to map out their locations-
http://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/medi ... 7711-2.pdf

INSTRUCTIONS
Submit this application in triplicate (3) to any FAA Flight Standards district office.
Applicants requesting a Certificate of Waiver or Authorization for an aviation event must complete all the applicable items on this form and attach a properly marked 7.5 series Topographic Quadrangle Map(s), published by the U.S. Geological Survey (scale 1:24,000), of the proposed operating area. The map(s) must include scale depictions of the flightlines, showlines, race courses, and the location of the air event control point, Police dispatch, ambulance, and fire fighting equipment. The applicant may also wish to submit photographs and scale diagrams as supplemental material to assist in the FAA's evaluation of a particular site. Application for a Certificate of Waiver or Authorization must be submitted 45 days prior to the requested date of the event.
Applicants requesting a Certificate of Waiver or Authorization for activities other than an aviation event will complete items 1 through 10 only and the certification, item 17, on the reverse.

There is also a FAA Manual for their use in making specifications, approval and monitoring these events.

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Biplane crash at Thunder Over Solano Airshow

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