Biplane crash at Thunder Over Solano Airshow

oscardeuce · **Joined:** Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:34 am **Posts:** 1021

[quote="Redtracer
This is enough of a tragedy without posts like that.
If you have data, do not just troll, present the data so we may all learn.[/quote]

So we may all learn? Learn what? Every horibble detail of Eddie's crash? Not posting every horrible detail is hardly trolling. FWIW, I witnessed Eddie's crash and the ensuing emergency responce and am privey to first hand information. Taigh's statement of Eddie surviving the crash is correct.

Fire suppression did not happen in time.

You can't have your cake and eat it too, by saying, you shouldn't post that, now tell me what you know![/quote]

What may we learn? There is much we could potentially learn.
We may learn there was nothing on God's green Earth anyone could have done.
We may learn a simple extrication tool/axe may have saved a life.
We may learn a better way to fight fire/get equipment on scene
How many of us practice emergency exits? we should, maybe this will remind us to drill in what to do to escape. Practice in the dark, practice with one hand/arm to simulate injury, practice until even if dazed and injured you can get yourself out. I have done this in the O-A. I know where the extrication tool should be, the canopy releases and have practiced what to do as much as I could sitting in a dark cockpit.

All of this may come out as the investigation moves forward. I would like to think if this happened to me, someone else might be saved by the information gathered.

I am not doubting the source of the information, rather the " more at 11:00" way it was presented. If we have good data from a reliable source why not release it? If he can't then at least give an explanation. I sure Taigh and many others can teach me much. I do not need every detail of the crash, but if there is data that could save any one of us, why delay? Even the opinion of an experienced person like Taigh could help all of us, especially if at a later time that opinion is validated.

One of us might be getting ready for a fateful flight, and that knowledge could save a life. I am saying tell us what you know, my life may depend on it.

Redtracer · **Posted:** Wed May 14, 2014 8:20 pm

Taigh Ramey wrote:

Eddie did survive the crash only to die in the fire that started after the aircraft came to rest. I watched from the wing of the Harpoon where I had a clear view of the crash and the fire station. There were no trucks or crews stationed out on the flight line near the aerobatic box or air show center. If they had been there I believe that Eddie would be alive. If the ARFF could have gotten to him in a minute had they been positioned out near the runways the fire could have been controlled. The fire trucks were in the station behind the crowd and concrete barriers. They took what seemed like forever to get out of the station and then they had to drive around the perimeter of the spectator area with their horn blowing to get people out of the way. It was about 4 minutes before they got there which was way too late. It was horrible beyond description to see a friend die when he could have been saved.

I can think of a hand full of accidents over the years where the pilot survived the crash only to perish afterwards for a lack of response or inadequate preparations. I would like to see some standards and procedures developed within the air show community to keep this from happening again.

I like that at OSH the fire crew is out on the grass near the runway with their gear all ready to go in a heartbeat. Next to them is a manned grade all, all terrain forklift, that is ready to lift or move anything as necessary to prevent these kinds of things from happening. This should be at every show and some guidelines set up to prepare for quick responses.

It makes me ill thinking about what happened to Eddie because in my mind he should still be alive.

I might be to close to the source, but I don't see the "more at 11:00" at all. I think Taigh posted what he witnessed and the information he knows first hand. He gives the opinion that faster fire suppression and an all terrain forklift may have saved Eddie's life. I understand that there is always something to learn from a crash without disclosing every little detail at this point. I'm sure people will be able to come up with the answers to your questions without them. The report will spell everything out soon enough.

And the reason some are not releasing the "data" at this point is it is to horrible to think about and makes the people that knew this wonderful man physically ill to think about it. I'm sorry, but I'll have to leave it at that.

oscardeuce · **Joined:** Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:34 am **Posts:** 1021

jtramo wrote:

Without going into details there was unpublished evidence I heard of first hand. Horrible and hopefuy something good like future regulation comes out of this. Having the drive equipment through the crowd is a horrible failure of planning and execution.

This is actually the "more at 11:00" I was discussing.

Redtracer · **Posted:** Wed May 14, 2014 8:40 pm

Then I apologize.

oscardeuce · **Joined:** Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:34 am **Posts:** 1021

Redtracer wrote:

Then I apologize.

De nada....

While we remember and grieve. it is important to learn.

I helped plan the medical response for about 5 airshows. I am Board Certified in Emergency Medicine, and worked with the local fire department, EMS and hospitals. I briefed them on what they might expect in the event of an incident. We had at least one cardiac arrest every year, and I am proud to say our people got them off the airport with a pulse every time. Thankfully the worst flight related injury was a dislocated shoulder from a USAF mechanic falling off the wing of an A-10.

jtramo · **Joined:** Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:39 pm **Posts:** 359

I'd rather not post details, and I never said I'll post them at 11. It's simply not relevant to the debate about response times and if they save lives. They took too long, that was the original point. If you absolutely must know then PM me.

jtramo · **Joined:** Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:39 pm **Posts:** 359

Oshkosh F-16 over run. First emergency vehicle on scene 1:45 after the F-16 comes to a stop.

http://youtu.be/LUei3kAcl9s

Taigh Ramey · **Posted:** Thu May 15, 2014 12:50 am

I resent being called a troll because of my post. I will not go in to the details as they serve no purpose in this discussion. Eddie did survive the crash only to perish in the ensuing fire. This is the truth and as previously stated you certainly don't have to believe it should you choose not to.

In my opinion Eddie could still be alive if the fire rescue crews were stationed on the flight line near the aerobatic box or Airshow center. The intent of my post was to spread the word about the need for better planning and preparations to try and prevent these kinds of tragedies from happening again.

I want to thank those of you who were supportive and replied to the troll/mud slinging comments in my absence. I appreciate the kind words.

Forgotten Field · **Posted:** Thu May 15, 2014 7:20 am

Taigh,
Just because you are the cool guy you are, and because I am truly a deviant, if I was near Stockton right now, I'd hang the most hideous troll doll I could find on one of your airplanes. If this thread happened a few weeks ago, I'd have painted a certain object "USN MARK I MOD 0 ANTI-TROLL MUNITION" for delivery to you...

lmritger · **Posted:** Thu May 15, 2014 7:52 am

I think 062 desperately needs weaponry so designated... how can we make this happen?

Taigh and Ken are among the absolute brightest stars of this site- they are everything one would wish of a warbird operator, they're friendly, open, willing to share EVERYTHING, and help educate us as to how things work, how things are built from scratch (using kitty litter!!! No, I will never forget that- that was truly eye-opening), they go out of their way to properly honor the men who actually served in the VP squadrons, and they certainly bring far more value to this community than some random jackwagon throwing out idiotic accusations.

You guys keep on keepin' on, I hope I get to meet you and 062 one day- wish you weren't so far from Va Beach, as she would look right at home visiting the MAM!

Lynn

oscardeuce · **Joined:** Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:34 am **Posts:** 1021

Taigh Ramey wrote:

I resent being called a troll because of my post. I will not go in to the details as they serve no purpose in this discussion. Eddie did survive the crash only to perish in the ensuing fire. This is the truth and as previously stated you certainly don't have to believe it should you choose not to.

In my opinion Eddie could still be alive if the fire rescue crews were stationed on the flight line near the aerobatic box or Airshow center. The intent of my post was to spread the word about the need for better planning and preparations to try and prevent these kinds of tragedies from happening again.

I want to thank those of you who were supportive and replied to the troll/mud slinging comments in my absence. I appreciate the kind words.

A. Was not you Taigh
B. Poor choice of words by me

Taigh Ramey · **Posted:** Thu May 15, 2014 3:17 pm

oscardeuce wrote:

Randy Haskin wrote:

Taigh Ramey wrote:

Eddie did survive the crash only to die in the fire that started after the aircraft came to rest. I watched from the wing of the Harpoon where I had a clear view of the crash and the fire station.

What did you see specifically that leads you to say that?

Yes, please explain the evidence.

This is enough of a tragedy without posts like that.
If you have data, do not just troll, present the data so we may all learn.

Hard to misinterpret this one

oscardeuce · **Joined:** Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:34 am **Posts:** 1021

jtramo wrote:
Without going into details there was unpublished evidence I heard of first hand. Horrible and hopefuy something good like future regulation comes out of this. Having the drive equipment through the crowd is a horrible failure of planning and execution.

This one.

jtramo · **Joined:** Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:39 pm **Posts:** 359

So you *need* the details on exactly how a we know a man perished for your own morbid curiosity and I'm the troll? Ha. Mods Lock the thread.

oscardeuce · **Joined:** Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:34 am **Posts:** 1021

No for safety
I do not need to know the why or details other than those pertinent to the safe operation of aircraft at Airshows

After 20+years in Emergency Medicine I have no curiosity if I ever did about that.
Like I said I have helped plan Airshow emergency response. What can I learn to save someone else's life and prevent another tragedy?

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Biplane crash at Thunder Over Solano Airshow

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