Skyraider Questions

[Snake45]

Could you list all the E-5 SNs?

I can, it may take a bit. Can't over-recommend Mutza's book though. Based on the detail of your posts, Snake, sounds like you need a copy on your shelf.

Ken

I ordered a copy from Amazon yesterday on your implied recommendation. Eagerly awaiting it even as we speak. So don't worry about posting the E-5 numbers.

[Snake45]

While I'm waiting for the book Ken, a question, if you have the full USAF A-1 flight manual.

I know some pages have exceptions called out for E-5s, and some pages have exceptions called out for MAP. But is there any page where BOTH E-5 and MAP exceptions are called out or mentioned?

[Ken]

In the comm/nav section both are mentioned on subsequent/sequential pages. The interesting thing is that one page breaks down comm/nav in the E vs. E-5 and the next page is USAF H vs. MAP H. Page 12 in Hook's book gives a bit of an explanation; in short, the E-5 is just an E that didn't get all the USAF E-mods, most notably the right seat control stick & throttle, but technically this extends to avionics, circuit breaker panels and more; this is why it's broken out separately in the pilot's Dash One.

As an aside, he goes on to say that the G's kept the G-designation because not all the mods were performed as well. (I'd be curious to know if any G, when fully modded by the USAF, earned a new title of "E" however Mutza's serial listing doesn't tend to support this.) Finally, if you thought you could pick out a G based on its lack of full blue room windows, there are so many examples of canopies being swapped that this idea doesn't fly either ... it comes down to serial.

Additionally, the Dash One manual acknowledges that G & J models exist but, due to their near-identical configurations, limits the text and diagrams to E and H only. (The only exception is the E-5 and MAP H-model references when necessary.)

MAP, for anyone following along by the way, is the Military Assistance Program. WWII folks think of Lend/Lease and, in modern times, we call it Foreign Military Sales (FMS).

Ken

[Snake45]

Very interesting. So "A-1E" can refer to at least three--maybe four--different airplanes:

*USN-spec A-1E
*USAF-spec A-1E
*MAP-spec A-1E, and...
*USAF A-1E-5, assuming those are two different things.

If we can find both MAP and E-5 referred to on the same page of the manual, or some difference between the two, then we'll know they are two different things.

I have yet to see one gray VNAF A-1 of any kind with the Collins 37R-2-type antenna (and the only camo ones with it were originally USAF). Haven't seen a USAF single-seater with the "tall spike" VNAF antenna, either, though I do have a few photos of both gray and camo USAF Es with the VNAF-type antenna. In every case, these airplanes do not have tailhooks, at least not if you can see the tailhook area in the photo. Interesting, is it not?

The E-5 SN you gave me the other day, I have a photo of that one with both tailhook and the 37R-2 antenna, which would blow my theory that E-5 and MAP spec are the same thing. There's also a profile in the Hukee book of an alleged E-5 with tailhook and 37R-2 antenna, but I haven't found a photo of that one yet, and of course profile illustrations can't be taken as a definitive reference. I'll know more when I run all the E-5 SNs in that other book through my photo database.

The last time I did one of these comprehensive photo surveys of a subject was about a decade ago, on the F4U-4. Learned a lot from that exercise, some of which is now "common knowledge." I'm learning a lot from my little Skyraider survey, too.

[Snake45]

(I'd be curious to know if any G, when fully modded by the USAF, earned a new title of "E" however Mutza's serial listing doesn't tend to support this.) Finally, if you thought you could pick out a G based on its lack of full blue room windows, there are so many examples of canopies being swapped that this idea doesn't fly either ... it comes down to serial.

Ken

Checking my photo list, I've got a BUNCH of AD-5N/A-1G (USN) SNs that look identical to "normal" USAF A-1Es, with blue back rooms and all. So I'd guess that a fully converted, USAF-ized (Navy) G became a USAF E.

[Ken]

If we can find both MAP and E-5 referred to on the same page of the manual, or some difference between the two, then we'll know they are two different things.

I would contend that, unless you find something that says that no VNAF A-1E ever had dual controls (because I assume most/all did have two sticks), that would be "some difference between the two" since we know that the E-5 was only single stick-ed.

Ken

[Ken]

So "A-1E" can refer to at least three--maybe four--different airplanes:

*USN-spec A-1E
*USAF-spec A-1E
*MAP-spec A-1E, and...
*USAF A-1E-5, assuming those are two different things.

Just curious - have you ever seen any documentation that refers to a "MAP-spec A-1E"? Not saying there isn't such a thing, I'm just not accustomed to that designation.

Ken

[Snake45]

If we can find both MAP and E-5 referred to on the same page of the manual, or some difference between the two, then we'll know they are two different things.

I would contend that, unless you find something that says that no VNAF A-1E ever had dual controls (because I assume most/all did have two sticks), that would be "some difference between the two" since we know that the E-5 was only single stick-ed.

Ken

Excellent point. As I said, I've got references that say that VNAF A-1Es were dual control, and other references that say they weren't.

[Snake45]

So "A-1E" can refer to at least three--maybe four--different airplanes:

*USN-spec A-1E
*USAF-spec A-1E
*MAP-spec A-1E, and...
*USAF A-1E-5, assuming those are two different things.

Just curious - have you ever seen any documentation that refers to a "MAP-spec A-1E"? Not saying there isn't such a thing, I'm just not accustomed to that designation.

Ken

Not official documentation, but I did run across the term in one of the books the other day. I don't remember which one--been looking at a lot of them lately. I'll see if I can find it.

And, as we know, the MAP term appears in the flight manual.

Personally, I consider a "MAP-spec" (we could also call it "VNAF-spec," as VNAF was the only foreign "customer" for -5/-6/-7) to be one with no tailhook, and with that "tall spike" antenna. I wish I knew what else to call that thing. I've been able to identify the USAF antenna, and even an oddball third type of antenna I've seen on a VERY few USAF-spec Es (I think there's one of them in the Skyraider thread), but so far can find no commercial NOR military designation for it, or anything on the market that looks like it. But just yesterday it hit me that that antenna sure looks a lot like the tall ones on earlier Skyraiders, -4s and earlier. I'm beginning to think that the Navy had a buttload of those things in a warehouse somewhere left over from the '50s, and simply bolted them onto the Skyraiders headed for VNAF, whereas the USAF (or whoever did their conversion work) went out and bought new commercial Collins 37R-2s.

Both USAF and VNAF single-seat Skyraiders retained the original USN "short spike" antenna for the AN/ARC-27. Curiously, no USAF nor VNAF E/G had this antenna, and relatively few USN AD-5/A-1Es of any kind had it either did (some did, many more didn't). Which raises another whole set of questions.

ETA: BTW, Ken, would you like to have a copy of my photo database? It's a work in progress, only about 75% complete at the moment, but you're welcome to look at it, provided of course that you keep it to yourself.

[Snake45]

Just curious - have you ever seen any documentation that refers to a "MAP-spec A-1E"? Not saying there isn't such a thing, I'm just not accustomed to that designation.

Ken

Not official documentation, but I did run across the term in one of the books the other day. I don't remember which one--been looking at a lot of them lately. I'll see if I can find it.

Found it! Johnsen's Douglas A-1 Skyraider: A Photo Chronicle, page 97:

Early in November 1970, the 1st SOS relinquished six A-1s--a mixed bag of Es and Hs--to the VNAF, which was expanding its Skyraider war....Others in the VNAF contingent had only flown A-1s equipped for Military Assistance Program standards. As they eyed these planes newly stricken from U.S. Air Force records, they kept remarking, "Our airplanes don't have this, our airplanes don't have that," as they encountered equipment peculiar to USAF A-1s, Boynton said.

One thing I've noticed that VNAF Skyraiders didn't have was the FM-622 whip antenna.

Farther down on page 97 is some info that might shed some light on that mysterious third type of antenna I mentioned in the other thread...more on that later....

[Ken]

It will be days before I can scan & post the appropriate pages, but the USAF dash one does have an avionics chart that, IIRC, details the radio and antenna nomenclature for each variant. And, yes, the MAP airplanes, for whatever reason, had different VHF, different IFF, etc, so the comments you just quoted make perfect sense.

One point I keep in mind is that I would assume the pre-1964 VNAF airplanes came from the Navy and were either stock Navy or modified to some MAP configuration. From 1964 and on, I also assume additional VNAF airplanes would have been products of the USAF process and that their "MAP-H-model" may differ from what the Navy supplied. Of course when USAF airplanes were directly swapped with the VNAF, all sort of exceptions were seen and the rules went out the window. One could imagine that if a VHF radio went bad, the VNAF went to the shelf and grabbed a suitable replacement whether it was type-correct for that tail number or not.

Ken

[Snake45]

One point I keep in mind is that I would assume the pre-1964 VNAF airplanes came from the Navy and were either stock Navy or modified to some MAP configuration. From 1964 and on, I also assume additional VNAF airplanes would have been products of the USAF process and that their "MAP-H-model" may differ from what the Navy supplied.
Ken

Everything I have says that all VNAF Skyraiders (except of course for the ones USAF turned over later, starting about 1970) came direct from the Navy and their rebuild centers. I've seen nothing to contradict this.

[Ken]

Interesting, I believe you. I'll get the comm equipment pages posted when I'm able and I will certainly look again at photographs for details I hadn't previously taken into account.

Out of curiosity, in the NMUSAF A-1H thread, there is a discussion on how/why the identity of that airplane can't be established. Do you see anything it its antenna configuration? It does (at least currently) have a tailhook.

Ken

[Snake45]

Interesting, I believe you. I'll get the comm equipment pages posted when I'm able and I will certainly look again at photographs for details I hadn't previously taken into account.

Out of curiosity, in the NMUSAF A-1H thread, there is a discussion on how/why the identity of that airplane can't be established. Do you see anything it its antenna configuration? It does (at least currently) have a tailhook.

Ken

Haven't seen that thread--I'll try to find it.

Found it!

Both airplanes look like they have the standard VNAF/MAP antenna configuration. Can't see a tailhook on the -5 but there seems to be one on the single-seater. I have no obvious explanation for VNAF antennas AND a tailhook on the same airplane. Never seen that before.

Well, there's that thing my Mom used to say to me: "You don't know WHERE that thing's BEEN!!!!"

[Snake45]

Hukee says that -5Qs and -5Ws were converted to USAF and VNAF A-1E/Gs, but I don't think so. First off, the -5Ws were built unarmed--no cannons or ejection ports for them. Now I suppose they could have been retrofitted with cannons with enough effort but I've now looked at several hundred USAF and VNAF A-1E pics, carefully logging the SNs of every single one I could identify, and I believe I've found photos of them in every AD-5 and -5N SN block, but so far NOT ONE with a -5W SN. As far as -5Qs (EA-1F), these were also unarmed but were converted from original -5Ns, which were originally armed, so it would have been possible to reinstall guns in them. Trouble is as conversions, the SNs of Qs isn't handy but I just this evening found a list, by individual BuAerNo, of the -5Ns that were converted to Qs. I'm going to run every one of those SNs through my database and if I find even one of them, then I'll buy the proposition that Qs were recycled into Es or Gs. If I don't find ANY of them, then I'll still have my doubts.

Looks like I was wrong about that. The Joe Baugher list shows at least 10 AD-5Ws (EA-1E) going to USAF or VNAF from the final production block, 135139 through 135222, and, even more convincingly, I've got photos of three of them.

As for the AD-5Q (EA-1F), I ran down all 54 converted SNs. Baugher shows exactly one as going to VNAF (no further details or disposition), and I still don't have one single photo of any of them in my database (in USAF or VNAF service--got LOTS of pictures of them in USN service, maybe all 54 of them).

Would you believe that at this point I don't even know how many -5s of all variant were built? For example, I've got two different good sources that state that one particular block of -5Ws was cancelled (over 60 aircraft), yet the Joe Baugher list has individual dispositions on at least two (or was it three?) airplanes in that block. And I'm sure the deeper I get into this, the more anamolies of this kind I'll find. Sigh.

Spent a fair amount of time on this today and I still can't confirm total number of -5s built. "The books" say 670, but the Baugher list BuNos add up to 737.

Sooner or later I WILL reconcile that difference. I did it with different published production figures on the F4U-4, and I'll get this one worked, out, too.