Warbird Information Exchange

I'm not looking for pity, just in a bad mood and feel like venting.
I enjoy warbirds and love the history behind them.
Hopefully your warbird experiences have been better.

I grew up flying, I was lucky enough that my father had planes. I soloed at 17, got my A&P at 19, I'm now 42 and work for a major air carrier.
When I was young I gravitated towards warbirds and used to work on, rebuild & clean them or anything else I could do to be around them.

This is what sticks in my memory over a 20 year period and what triggered it to come back,

Helped recover a Stearman's lower wing after a ground loop. No pay, just the promise of a ride when completed. When completed, the owner offered to take me for a ride in his Cessna 337 (not O2). You know, because the Stearman is in the back of the hanger and its such a "pain" to push in and out.

Helped rebuild a T-6 over a 2 1/2 year period, about 20- 30 hours a week ( I was young and single), no pay again. I was treated to one 30 minute ride in the back seat.

Helped work on a T-28A (IRAN), no pay again. After completed, owner wanted to take me for a ride but, he just couldn't, "Liability" he said. He was worried my mother or wife would sue him if anything happened.

Stripped a Soko Galeb for repaint, no pay, just wanted a ride. I've been waiting 16 years now.

Polished a Fouga Magister for airshow season, looked like a mirror. Sorry Mike, my wife wants to go to the airshow with me. No room for three, maybe next time. Still waiting.

Several years ago, I was at the Hamilton AFB airshow in No. Cal.. I had some friends there who had flown in and was standing on the flight line side of the orange cones and barriers when a T-28B taxied up. The pilot jumps out on to the wing (just like John Wayne) pulls out his cell phone, starts talking to someone and begins to issue the group of us orders on how to push his T-28 behind the barriers. Apparently because I was standing the closest to the left main gear, he thought that would be my responsibility. When I didn't push and the plane started to go in a circle he pulled the phone from his ear and gave me the order to push again. I told him how I felt about it, @#$% &#@!!
Hey pal, it's not my plane. You get off the wing and push it yourself!!!!

What happened most recently that set this whole rant in motion was,
I had sold some aviation items on ebay. After a few e-mails I find out the winners of my items have a dive bomber they are restoring and they find out I have my A&P.
They offered me the chance to drive 2 1/2 hours from my home to work on thier plane for "FREE", because it would be a "good" experience for me.

I replied that I would schedule some time for them at $100 per hour ( less than most lawyers) or they could drive up to my house and help me put in hardwood floors and do some painting.
They were offended.

What is it with some warbird people??????????????

It amazes me how many people want you to work on thier a/c for free and yet what ever thier automobile mechanic charges is fine.

I no longer volunteer my time or A&P, I let them know upfront what it will cost to have me work on thier a/c. That pretty much puts an end to it.

Ok, I'm done ranting.


EDIT: All of these items happened years ago, the ebay incident was most recent. I'm not saying all my warbird experiences were bad, just these.
I know the difference between what volunteering my time and barter/trading my time is.
It still amazing how many people get offended when you want to charge them for your time to work on thier a/c.

Regards,
Mike

Or own a T-6 and ask for some of what the fighter guys are getting at an airshow, I quit going to many of them because I got zero from the airshow poeple. One did offer me 20 gallons, I didn't go.

Mike I'm gonna reply, & hope I don't step on it. When I first started working on Warbirds, I was fortunate to be in with a group of folks that took care of their Mechs. I started out with The Cajun Wing of the CAF. We had the B-23, & SNJ. We also had several member owned airplanes involved. I was the Maintenance Officer, & I was the B-23 Crew Chief. We busted our ass keeping planes flying, but we were always taken care of. I flew as much as I wanted ( I probably got more time in a B-23 than anyone alive ). I crewed member owned airplanes, & though Merle Gustafson's F4U-4 did not have but one seat, he made sure I got rides in other airplanes. I have not been active with Warbirds much in the last few years, but the last guy I helped had a P-51, T-6, & some Stearmans. Although this individual is what I consider one of my few friends, he always took care of me. Though I have never been paid to work on Warbirds, I always seemed to hook up with the right kind of people. I have also been around some card carrying A-Holes, that I would not do crap for. I guess my point is that I have always kinda been able to feel the sitution out & have a pretty good idea how that Owner/Pilot ---Mechanic deal is gonna go. There are a lot of great people that own or operate these airplanes, & there are a lot that think its a privlage for us to volunteer effort on their machines. So don't feel like The Lone Ranger, there are a lot of folks that have been taken advantage of in this business, to any of you that I may have helped along the way Thank You for treating me right & appreciating my help. Just my 47 cents.

Robbie Stuart
Former Maint Officer
Former Crew Chief F4U-4, P-51, T-6/SNJ, B-23
A&P I.A.

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Fly Fast Make Noise!

I feel your pain. I have been involved with a few museums and a number of private projects, so I definitely know where you are coming from.

That being said, you are only creating your own anguish by your attitude. This is not an insult to your character, just an observation that I have made about myself which I suspect may apply.

You need to let yourself free. If you volunteer to work on someone else's airplane, recognize that it is for free and that the satisfaction you get is from the opportunity to work on that aircraft. I did this for years, and now I have the skills to restore my own T-6. I cried too when I felt I didn't get enough flight time in return for my labor, but I am now over this issue. If I volunteer, I expect nothing in return. If I do get something in return I am pleasantly surprised. If I get nothing, that is what I expected so there is no disappointment.

It is a much more sure thing to go to Warbird Adventures and buy some T-6 time, or go to Stallion 51 to buy some P-51 time. You save time and gas money, and you know exactly what you are getting for your effort because you have entered into a binding contract with a reputable company.

The problem with a promise is that it is a good intention made in advance. Things come up, planes go down for maintenance, people move, relationships sour, people forget, etc.

Some pilot/owners are egotistical, no doubt. Others are not. Museums can add the whole new dimension of politics as well.

If you have an expectation to get "x" amount of hours for "x" amount of labor, make this clear up front and get it in writing. Not that you plan to sue if it doesn't go as planned, but at least everyone knows the expectations up front.

I have had people help me on my aircraft in the past. Many just wanted to participate in the process, some wanted flight time. Just the opposite of your complaint, I had over 40 hours put on my Luscombe once in return for some paint work that never got done, so it isn't always the volunteer that gets screwed in these deals. In another case I had a guy help me do the firewall forward restoration of my Stearman in exchange for some stick time, but unfortunately had to sell the Stearman as soon as it was flying again. When I told him I had to sell, I said that I wanted to make it right by him so we came to an alternate agreement. I bought the guy about 5 hours of Stearman dual as repayment. We are still good friends to this day.

I am sorry that you have had some bad deals, From day one of our group owning our AC-47 we have understood that the mech. is the lifeblood of a Big Radial engine warbird. Pilots are a dime a dozen (include me) but to have several guys come over every Saturday and work on our goon for nothing is PRICELESS ! it is a group effort and everyone understands this up front. Don't give up just look for better folks to be around.

Mike,

BELIEVE me...I understand your position. It's one of those "been there done that" things you have in your life from being told one thing, then lived another with regard to this type of thing. I've been fortunate to have worked with several groups and people who operate these planes. Some were exceptional with regard to how they treated their volunteers. The Mid Atlantic Air Museum fall into that category. When I was with them, back when they were in Harrisburg, Pa. I was treated very well, especially when you consider I was a newly minted A&P with basically a very low experiance level. In the time I was with them, I had to proove myself and my abilities to let them make the decision to bring me forward to give me more responsabilities in keeping the planes flying. This was a volunteer position, and I knew it. But, I was accorded the oppotunity to fly along with them to many airshows, onboard the aircraft...although mostly it was the R4D, I had always hoped to get a ride in Breifing Time...or the one that I was most involved in, the P2V-7. Though I was begining my career, I had choices to make which took me away from them, but at the tender young and inexperianced age of 22, I was informed that by the time it came for me to leave the area for career reasons, I was to be "upgraded" to Plane Captain on the P2....sadly I had to put that away under the heading of unfulfilled aspirations. But they were very good to me.

On the other side of the coin, I have been in situations where horor stories like yours are all too common. The .."I know I promised...but I've got this friend"....or "I know I promised...but I don't have the time..." or..."I know I promised...but my insurance liability..." or just plain have been told.."Hey YOU VOLUNTEERED...so any promise I made has no meaning because YOU VOLUNTEERED". Those all fall under the category of dealing with A@#%$#$s.

I volunteer because I want to see the job done right....and I beleive that the planes and the lives they carry need to be safeguarded. I have seen way too many hatchet jobs done in the name of "saving money" on the part of the Owner/Pilot. And I look at it this way.....it's their plane and they can do what they will....regardless of what my feelings are. It is their plane...their or their families lives...or friends...and it is their responsability.

I was with another group...on a volunteer basis, and was promised everything from a ride in a Corsair, a P-51, to a B-25, to the Stearman. An while I was their longer than some....it was they who got the promises filled and not me. I got over it. But my dream won't die...at least not yet.

I have done my work to the best of my ability....which I regard as a sacred promise between myself, the Owner/Pilot, the FAA, and God Almighty. I would give my right....(fill in the blank here), to get a flight in a Warbird, it hasn't happened yet.

I guess what I am saying is this...volunteer because it is something YOU want to do. View it with no strings attached....and if you get a promise fulfilled, then you are one of the lucky few.

I know how you feel....because I have been there myself.

Take Care m'friend.

Paul

Here’s my prescription:

Pull Bax Seat off the shelf, read two stories, and call me in the morning.

_________________

Commemorative Air Force
Experimental Aircraft Association
Warbirds of America

What are you waiting for? Join us!

Best way to contact me- email my last name @gmail.com

Hi Mike:

I can certainly understand where you are coming from. Aviation seems to attract a lot of type "A" people... but I'm also involved in classic cars. They have a bunch of tightly wound folks too.

If you wanted to hang out with a GREAT bunch of local folks (of which I am one) check out www.nationalcapitolsquadron.com We fly an L-5 and a BT-13A with a T-6 powerplant, and those who help *DO* get rides!!

Seriously, NCS is a great group, and you are welcome anytime. This Saturday and every second Saturday is "open hangar day". Come on out, burgers or chili will be served. Culpeper Airport, KCJR

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Regards,

Jase
www.b26marauder.com
"I'm having a BLAST!!" 2007 CAF Wing Staff Conference

RIP Gary Austin..always in our hearts

If you had purchased $1000.00 of Us Airways stock one year ago, it would now be worth $0.00.

With Northwest, you would have $0.00 left of the original $1,000.00.

With United Airlines, you would have less than $7.80 left.

But, if you had purchased $1,000.00 worth of beer one year ago, drank all the beer, then turned in the cans for the aluminum recycling price, you would have $214.00.

Based on the above, current investment advice is to drink
heavily and recycle.


It's called the 401-Keg Plan



The airlines could follow the same plan by selling all their planes for scrap aluminum, Then they could pay back all the employees for their lost ESOP Stock!!!!

Hey Mike,
You and I have many shared experiences and I have done some even dumber things , so I'm not going to "bash on you just share some of the educational"bashings" I've learned.
First - value your time, talent , A&P, fabric work ability and polishing and detailing skills. Quit giving your talent away!!! When was the last time anyone got a free root canal, free real estate closing, or free insurance on your car or house?
Second- Cash is KING!!!, Go for cash- you can always use it to buy a ride.
Get something up front so that you cannot come up empty handed, if the deal goes sour.
THird- Barter/Trade and get your part of the arrangement in advance,. You can't get screwed that way and it becomes HIS responsiblity to get his part of the deal. He needs you!
Fourth- GET IT IN WRITING! Email, or even a hand written note, make a note on your calendar after you talk to someone and put down exactly what was agreed to. I have cured a lot of pilot's alzheimers with this.
Fifth- Don't do anything without getting it in writing and signed, dated, include value and scope of service .
This keeps people amazingly honest most of the time.
Sixth- Check the guy out. How is he thought of in the warbird communityand the neigbors at the airport?
Last, a friend of mine that was the highest priced photographer once told me, "The more you charge, the more they love you!" CHarge high and deliver exceptional results. !!
Quality people will pay, understand, and truly appreciate quality.

Now cheer up, make a strategy for the future, and go kick some ass!!

We all have good intentions and sometimes we can't do everything we want to do. I am sure I have promised more airplane rides than I have delivered, and most of the time we really mean it when we say it.

This has me scared.

I was told all volunteers would fly on Doc.

a) I can't work there until this fall
b) Mr. Ziegler, who ran the project, doesn't work there anymore.

[/quote]


If you had purchased $1000.00 of Us Airways stock one year ago, it would now be worth $0.00.

With Northwest, you would have $0.00 left of the original $1,000.00.

With United Airlines, you would have less than $7.80 left.

But, if you had purchased $1,000.00 worth of beer one year ago, drank all the beer, then turned in the cans for the aluminum recycling price, you would have $214.00.

Based on the above, current investment advice is to drink
heavily and recycle.


It's called the 401-Keg Plan



The airlines could follow the same plan by selling all their planes for scrap aluminum, Then they could pay back all the employees for their lost ESOP Stock!!!![/quote]

Broken Wrench,

you just HAD to bring this one up didn't you ? Based on where my Avatar says I live, you can get a pretty good idea of where I got my experiance.....Grrrrrrrrrrrr......nasty subject here m'friend. Still....it was a good ride and while I kid about it....the subject of working on planes for free...especially jetliners....grates on my teeth. Warbirds are a different matter. I do that for pleasure and pride...if I get the ride...great...if I don't, I can still walk away knowing I did my best.

No offense taken m'friend.....just......a touchy subject when the topic of the airlines comes up.

Have a Great Day....

Paul

This is a common story. With your background had you ever considered buying a project of your own? Even today you can find L bird and PT trainer projects for $10,000. Building your own airplane sure is more fun that giving your time away.
The "insurance" story after helping for years pretty much takes the cake. I think I would have punched the dude.

DONT FEEL LIKE THE LONE RANGER,IF I HAD A NICKLE FOR EVERY TIME I WORKED FOR FREE I WOULD BE RETIRED BY NOW BUT IF I DIDNT ENJOY IT I WOULDNT BE THERE.I TAKE CARE OF ALOT OF A/C SOME VERY RARE BUT MOST ALL OF THEM FLY REGULARLY AND IM LUCKY IF I GET A RIDE ONCE OR TWICE A YEAR SOME YEARS ARE BETTER THAN OTHERS AND IVE HAD SOME VERY COOL FLIGHTS BY GUYS THAT KNEW ME FOR ABOUT FIVE MINUTES!! IVE MET SOME GREAT PEOPLE IN AVIATION AND OF COURSE A FEW JERKS,BUT THE GOOD OUTWEIGH THE BAD 10 TO 1 SOME OF THE NICEST PEOPLE I KNOW IVE MET THROUGH AVIATION.THANKS MIKE

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IF YOU CAN FIND IT WE CAN FIX IT

DONT FEEL LIKE THE LONE RANGER,IF I HAD A NICKLE FOR EVERY TIME I WORKED FOR FREE I WOULD BE RETIRED BY NOW BUT IF I DIDNT ENJOY IT I WOULDNT BE THERE.I TAKE CARE OF ALOT OF A/C SOME VERY RARE BUT MOST ALL OF THEM FLY REGULARLY AND IM LUCKY IF I GET A RIDE ONCE OR TWICE A YEAR SOME YEARS ARE BETTER THAN OTHERS AND IVE HAD SOME VERY COOL FLIGHTS BY GUYS THAT KNEW ME FOR ABOUT FIVE MINUTES!! IVE MET SOME GREAT PEOPLE IN AVIATION AND OF COURSE A FEW JERKS,BUT THE GOOD OUTWEIGH THE BAD 10 TO 1 SOME OF THE NICEST PEOPLE I KNOW IVE MET THROUGH AVIATION.THANKS MIKE

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IF YOU CAN FIND IT WE CAN FIX IT