Mystery metal Scheme P-51 Mustang!

[Randy Haskin]

Can you tell me why you say this machine is using the false serial 44-84962? Is this not its real ID?

The short version is that the 1960s and 1970s serial numbers that were given to the Cavalier (and associated) rebuilt Mustangs are not covered by the Limited Type Certificate that the FAA has for civilian operation of surplus Mustangs.

So, civilian American owners of such airframes have to have WWII-era serials attached to the airframes in order for them to be operated in the Limited category. When any of the Cavalier export airframes have been returned to the US (from Bolivia...DOMREP....Indonesia...El Salvador), they've always been N-registered with essentially bogus WWII serial numbers.

None of the Cavalier aircraft that left the rebuild program with "new" serial numbers had any official tie-ups with wartime 44- and 45- serial numbers. The airplanes were built from parts, and the Cavalier folks never made any effort whatsoever to determine, track, or document what aircraft those parts came from.

Through careful analysis of photos of the aircraft when they were being built in Sarasota and sometimes in post-service restorations, it is possible to see original markings etched into the metal, and those markings can sometimes be traced back to original serial numbers. Unfortunately, this is the vast minority of the time, and a lot of this info is still in the hands of historians and researchers and not in the hands of the people who own, operate, rebuild, or register these aircraft.

The times that I have had such information and shared it with the owners of said aircraft, they've not been interested in attempting to straighten out the information with the FAA registration or otherwise -- it just isn't worth the legal and administrative hassle for them. I have even had a little blowback from owners when I've published "real" histories or serial numbers in magazine articles and otherwise that does not jive with FAA histories or serial numbers. I've basically chosen to stop pushing the issue with actively registered aircraft, and instead just keep the documentation for historical purposes (and I intend to publish it, of course, in my book eventually).

[Robbie Stuart]

Good to see you are still around Hacker!
Robbie

[DH82EH]

Agreed Robbie!

Thanks for the info Randy.

Do any of you guys know how many Mustangs were processed through Cavalier?
How many are left?

Andy Scott

[Randy Haskin]

Do any of you guys know how many Mustangs were processed through Cavalier?

Complicated question, as TFA/Cavalier bought up whole aircraft, wrecks, and parts that went into "stock", and then built airplanes out of those stock parts. There were quite a few airframe identities that were "eaten up" by the process -- that just sort of disappeared into the TFA/Cavalier machine and never matched up with any "new" aircraft that rolled out the doors for sale.

Overall, there were about 100 airframes that were owned by the Lindsay family (and associated) businesses, many of which were remanufactured into "Cavalier Mustangs" of several different civilian and military configurations and models. About 20 of those airframe identities disappeared as noted above.

Cavalier and associated companies produced 23 "new" re-serialized Mustangs -- note how close that number gets to the number of airframe identities that "disappeared".

[Randy Haskin]

Good to see you are still around Hacker!
Robbie

I was on a break from WIX for a while and just recently popped back to read up on the ex-Pardue Sea Fury crash. Happy to be back.

[Randy Haskin]

Just as a follow-up, the airplane in question in this thread was given the "new" USAF serial of 72-1539 as part of the PEACE PONY II military assistance program, and later flew in the Indonesian AF with the ID F364.

In an 8 November 1982 letter to Steve Johnson -- the importer of that airframe from Indonesia -- famous Mustang historian the late Paul Coggan identified the Mustang as 44-84962 (AURI identity, F 312), which is the identity that it carries today according to the FAA paperwork.

That is the root cause of this aircraft's particular identity crisis. To this day I do not know exactly how Coggan came up with that specific number/identity, as I can't find any supporting facts for that. On the other hand, Ed Maloney, who rebuilt/restored the airplane at Fighter Rebuilders, was reported to have actually seen "F 364" on the aircraft when the paint was being stripped. In fact, Maloney also enlisted the help of Mustang historian Mal Gougon (who is well known amongst Mustang people, but not to warbird folks at large since he never published anything), but I have never seen Mal's reply to Maloney's question about the ID of the airplane. His letter to Mal seemed to indicate that the info he'd received from Johnson (who'd received it from Coggan) did not jive with what he was physically seeing on the aircraft as it was being disassembled and stripped.

To his credit, Coggan received his information via an "Equipment Specialist" at the United States Defense Liaison Group, Indonesia named Alan Headley (a latter dated 4 November 1981). Mr Headley was apparently the US representative in charge of disposing Indonesia's old MAP aircraft, and provided the serial number list to Coggan. Unfortunately, Mr Headley's letter is rife with inaccuracies that are easily shown with other hard evidence. No offense to Mr Headley -- his job wasn't historical accuracy, but rather disposal of unneeded US-furnished military equipment, so it isn't very surprising that his information may not be that accurate. Interestingly, though, Headley's letter does not identify the airframe that became N9857P as 44-84962 (Headley, also incorrectly, identifies it as 44-1147N).

This is why pinning the "correct" IDs to many of these airplanes is quite a wild goose chase!

I am only able to confidently print the airplane's 72 serial based on my own research into Field Services (the company that built the airplane, of course), and with help from Marc Koelich, who is the foremost knowledge on Indonesian Mustangs on the internet. Pretty simple deduction, really, by knowing what was made in Sarasota, what existed in Indonesia, and the fates of those airplanes in Indonesia.

The 72-XXXX "Cavaliers" history was not (and is still not) widely known, so I understand that there was probably no interest in 1982 from Johnson, Maloney, or any other owner of a P-51 at the time, in having a Mustang registered with a "new" rebuild identity (only 10 years old at the time!) instead of a genuine WWII identity.

[DH82EH]

Thanks for all that. It's quite interesting.

I can believe that owners would be reluctant to have the "histories" of their machines scrutinized.
It's also quite easy to believe that sorting out said history, becomes less attractive, when it becomes a big hassle or expense.
Particularly if all you want to do is fly your aircraft.

Looking forward to your book. Although not currently holding my breath

Andy

[bdk]

On the other hand, Ed Maloney, who rebuilt/restored the airplane at Fighter Rebuilders...

I don't think that Ed Maloney ever did Mustang restorations. I believe that Fighter Rebuilders was owned by Jim Maloney and Steve Hinton at the time.

[zorro9]

Randy:

Good Day!

Tks for the interesting details/research on the Cavalier aircraft!

In the absence of factory id/mod plates on the P-51 WW samples maybe it's worth looking at the wing structure details for poss Ids.

While doing some research on Bell P-63Es awhile ago, I found out about the numerous places on the airframe that Bell left its mark to ID each aircraft.

One of them, are the C/Ns on the L/R wing leading edge spar indicating the sequence of the P-63Es. i.e XXX E-1- E-2 and so on. You will find these "numbers" stamped into the metal of the leading wing spar facing fwd in the wheel well area. Another source are special mod plates about 4"x 3" found on the L/R side of the aileron area indicating the C/n sequence of the aircraft.

While I do not know if NAA or other US factories/plants followed this procedures, it may worth looking at these areas at the next WW II Warbird airshow. Maybe the CAF P-63 restoration folks can shed some more light into this subject. Welcome back!!

[Randy Haskin]

On the other hand, Ed Maloney, who rebuilt/restored the airplane at Fighter Rebuilders...

I don't think that Ed Maloney ever did Mustang restorations. I believe that Fighter Rebuilders was owned by Jim Maloney and Steve Hinton at the time.

I would be happy to show you the letter from Ed Maloney to Mal Gougon if you so wish. It is signed "Ed".

[bdk]

I would be happy to show you the letter from Ed Maloney to Mal Gougon if you so wish. It is signed "Ed".

PM sent!