Mystery of Hindenburg air catastrophe solved... Really?

[HawkerTempestMKII]

bdk wrote:

Chris,

Air is the oxidizer and hydrogen is the fuel. I'm not sure I understand your point?

In the case of nitrate dope and cotton, the cotton is a fuel (as would be any elemental hydrogen nearby), but I think the nitrocellulose dope acts as both a fuel and oxidizer when ignited- like a solid rocket fuel.

Yes, but Mr. Muraski is picking on me because all I said was it will burn. I didn't say oxygen wasn't there.

[shrike]

And to think, the US learned this lesson fifteen years earlier when the semi-rigid airship Roma went down in Virginia, ending the Hydrogen era for the United States.

The Hindenburg was designed for Helium, but the only source for it was the US, which embargoed shipments to Nazi Germany. I believe the US still keeps (or kept until recently) helium stocks as a national security asset.

[HawkerTempestMKII]

Helium is rare, and from what I have heard (maybe I am wrong) it leaves the atmosphere because it's lighter than air and doesn't combine with other elements like hydrogen. So it must be mined.

[shrike]

Helium is rare, and from what I have heard (maybe I am wrong) it leaves the atmosphere because it's lighter than air and doesn't combine with other elements like hydrogen. So it must be mined.

Isolated from certain natural gas deposits. Until the 90's the US produced 90% of the helium available on earth. (as opposed to the universe at large where it accounts for 24% of all observable matter )

[tom d. friedman]

The Hindenburg was not covered with normal doped fabric, but rather the fabric coating was a mixture of nitrile rubber and aluminium powder.
This happens to be basically the same thing that was used as fuel the Shuttle's solid boosters, so while the hydrogen did burn, and can be seen to be escaping from the burst cells and burning over the envelop, it was not the primary cause or fuel of the fire.

Apparently the Zeppelin company had already determined the danger of the coating, and had reformulated it with addition of a bronze powder acting as a retardant. This formulation was slated for the Hindenburg's sister ship Graf Zeppelin II, and for the Hindenburg herself at the rest refit.

It was politically expedient to quash that report, and point the finger at the US for denying Germany the helium the ship had been designed for in the first place.

that cloth was called gold beaters cloth. i had a piece from the graf zeppelin about the size of an open matchbook. i had the provinence on it as well. sold it to a big time
zep collector for a very nice profit. i can't believe history authorities are re-hashing this again. most of these theories have been concluded countless times!!

[tom d. friedman]

fyi...... there is a national shortage of helium. darn!!! can't do any oz munchkin songs!!!

[leo]

AFIK the gas cells were made of goldbeaters skin (cattle intestine), the outer coverings was doped fabric laced to the framework.

[Rajay]

I think you should demand a refund on your chem-lab education.

No oxidizer, no fire, no kidding.

Uh, does anyone here doubt that the sun is "burning"?

The sun is 91.2% hydrogen, 8.7% helium, and the remaining 0.1% several "trace" gases.

So, I have to ask - where is the oxidizer that you say must be present for the hydrogen to burn?

[leo]

Isn't that nuclear fusion, vs. rapid oxidization or burning?

[The Inspector]

I think you should demand a refund on your chem-lab education.

No oxidizer, no fire, no kidding.

Uh, does anyone here doubt that the sun is "burning"?

The sun is 91.2% hydrogen, 8.7% helium, and the remaining 0.1% several "trace" gases.

So, I have to ask - where is the oxidizer that you say must be present for the hydrogen to burn?

I've referred to it as 'that low grade hydrogen experiment' for years just because it makes the brain deads stop and you can almost hear the gears grinding and screeching-

[Rick65]

The sun involves fusion, not burning, with the fusion taking place in the core heating up the rest.
wiki
"In the inner portions of the Sun, nuclear fusion has modified the composition by converting hydrogen into helium, so the innermost portion of the Sun is now roughly 60% helium, with the metal abundance unchanged."

[Rajay]

The sun involves fusion, not burning, with the fusion taking place in the core heating up the rest.
wiki
"In the inner portions of the Sun, nuclear fusion has modified the composition by converting hydrogen into helium, so the innermost portion of the Sun is now roughly 60% helium, with the metal abundance unchanged."

Yes, the sun involves fusion, not combustion - but it is still "burning".

You are apparently limiting yourself and the verb "to burn" to refer to the process of combustion in particular, but that is not the only meaning of "burn".

http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/burn_1

It can mean simply to be on fire or just to produce heat and/or flames. The fusion in the sun produces heat and what appears to be flames, therefore it is valid to say that it is burning. It is not valid to say that it is combusting, but it is consuming its fuel.

A "fuel" is said to "burn" if it is subjected to or engaged in a chemical (or nuclear) reaction which causes it to produce heat, light, or any other form of energy during which it is also consumed. Therefore it is valid to say that the hydrogen "fuel" in the sun is "burning" and by extension, the sun itself as well.

Nobody here said that the sun was combusting.

There are many other uses for and meanings of "to burn" as well. When your skin turns red after spending too much time outside on a clear and sunny day, it has been "burned" but there has been no combustion. That's one.

[Rick65]

Imagine the headline "Nuclear Reactor Burning" when all it is doing is running happily, producing heat and hopefully in full control.

In context, what happened to the Hindenburg was different from what happens in the sun.
One was a chemical reaction (burning) the other is nuclear.

[shrike]

Speaking of burning (combustion) I've always liked "breakaway oxidation phenomenon" as a fine euphemism for "fire"

[bdk]

This is all well and good, but the Hindenburg combusted (not burned in a nuclear fusion incident) and crashed. Have you heard? I wonder though if they were referring to the real Hindenburg or the movie Hindenburg? Or did they both combust and burn in an exothermic oxidative reaction?