B-17's in Vietnam? -Update

[TAdan]

Here is a good write up describing the origins of the Vietnam era AC gunships.

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airc ... rozek.html

[p51]

i think in coming here he was attempting to use the warbird, information, and exchange aspects of what is, notionally at least, the warbird information exchange, to find some evidence, if it existed. you've said your piece, and your point is well stated. perhaps should you should consider that others might enjoy discussing the possibility since there have been times where historical facts have come to light well out of the blue. or just stop being rude, i could care less which you pick.

You need to go back and read the following to see what i was talking about. Then, come back and tell me who was really being rude:

Can't we all just accept that someone would have heard about this and documented the actual use of a B-17 in that war by now if it'd actually happened?

So in summary its up ...meME to disprove YOUR theory, with a photo...this one time at space camp...

The question the intial poster asked was were B-17's used in Vietnam / Indo China (also known as VRN) and the answer is = Yes.

[CAPFlyer]

Overlooking the obvious fact that the USAF didn't have any B-17s during the period in question....
Why would they have kept the operation secret? The early gunship program was well-known..

For the same reason the RF-86F "Haymaker" was "well known" but its actual use and employment wasn't known until 2000 when most of the missions were declassified.

Just because parts of a program are "well known" doesn't mean that where they were used or all the airframes that used them were well known and that it's not possible that there were one-off/limited modification test programs with them done both in public and in secret at the same time or similar timeframes. I mean, there have been some oddball modifications fielded in the past that saw actual combat use and at the time weren't really highly publicized like the YB-40 and ACH-47.

How much of the Raven operations were known during Vietnam? What about the Air America operations? Not much. There were pictures taken, but from what I've found, most of them didn't start making it into the public view until the mid/late-1990's. If it was a very limited program with 1 or 2 aircraft, and less than 50 people involved and they all chose not to speak of it and photos weren't allowed, then there can be credence to the claim. "Photos or it didn't happen" just doesn't work all the time guys. Sometimes you have to realize that occasionally everyone involved with a program actually follows the rules and doesn't take pictures when they're told not to.

BTW: Just to be clear - I think it's unlikely that any US-operated B-17's were flown in Vietnam with mini-guns during the period of the US involvement in Vietnam. While there were certainly airframes that could have been over there, I don't see logistically and practically how they would be fit in the airplane and utilized because of serious field of fire problems and the small size of the aircraft behind the wing compared to the C-47 creating problems with fitting the pod back there.

[muddyboots]

Let's look at this logically...
Of all the B-17 books out there, wouldn't you think there'd be a photo of a B-17 in 'Nam somewhere in print by now?
"I heard that..." is no argument.

Well, I'll have you know that my uncle's wife's cousin's brother's neighbor's husband's shrink's priest's pet monkey's trainer's fortune teller said there were B-17's in Vietnam in the 1960's. So it must be true.

Hey, that was me!

[JohnB]

I think the whole Vietnam story comes from the use of a TB-17G 44-85531 was based at Clark AB and supposedly used for "clandestine" operations.
One book (I can't reacall which one) mentions the aircraft and says it was used over Vietnam in the 50s because the Vietnamese thought it didn't look like an "American" aircraft.

[Noha307]

The YB-40 is what comes to mind when I hear B-17 gunship. (Yes, I know it was nowhere near the Vietnam era and had a different purpose. But it was a B-17 loaded up with guns.) I'm surprised no one brought it up yet.

The original test bed for AC's at Eglin AFB was a C-131.

I haven't heard of this before. Anyone have pictures?

the Vietnamese thought it didn't look like an "American" aircraft.

I wonder what an American aircraft looks like?

[BuzzBy]

Regardless of whether the original post is proven correct or not, there is a ton of good information that comes out of a good discussion.
From the CiA Fort to the C-131 gunship to the YB-40, I'm loving some of the great facts that come to light, (to me at least).

Thanks,
John

[JohnB]

I'd like to see some photos of the AC-131.

[jmkendall]

I think that the line of investigation regarding the earliest GAU-2/a is the most viable suggestion I have seen.

I think some of the focus on USAF operations to the exclusion of CIA operations is not proper to a thorough investigation.

For instance an investigation into declassified and foreign source materials regarding CIA B-17 operations would probably reveal that this rumor is false. HOWEVER; it might also reveal much new information on the fleet of B-17's, PB4Y's and other aircraft used by the CIA and Taiwan.

Investigations into odd ball allegations can lead, at times, to interesting places

[JohnB]

I wonder what an American aircraft looks like?

I wondered that myself, but that is what the book said (wish I could find the exact source..anyone else out there recall seeing it?)
But there are some oversimplified national traits some give aircraft...
Russian aircraft look like bigger, uglier versions of western aircraft,
French aircraft (especially between the wars) aircraft look weird... stuff like that.

[Steve Nelson]

I think I read the comment about the B-17 not looking like an American aircraft in Bert Kinzey's "B-17 in Detail and Scale." There was a pic of one of the CIA aircraft used in the 50s. It was all black with no armament, and had slide-in trays on either side of the tail allowing the tail number to be constantly changed. A Google Image search turned up a couple of pics, but they were just thumbnails attached to dead links.

SN

[CDF]

Regardless of whether the original post is proven correct or not, there is a ton of good information that comes out of a good discussion.From the CiA Fort to the C-131 gunship to the YB-40, I'm loving some of the great facts that come to light, (to me at least).
Thanks,
John

Agreed, just a shame Elroy Jetson feels the need to lower the tone

Little known (to me anyway) aspect of AA

With the end of the Korean War in early 1954, the United States greatly stepped up its involvement in French Indochina. But, to maintain the "plausible deniability" that rendered so many poorly thought-out Southeast-Asian schemes palatable to American administrations, the intervention was placed in the hands of the CIA and its proprietary airline, Air America. To meet France's need for airlift capacity and long-range, high-endurance strike aircraft, USAF C-119 transports and B-26s were flown from Korea to Taiwan and the Philippines for overhaul.

They were "sanitized" (rendered anonymous and hopefully untraceable), then transferred to the CIA for use in Indochina. USAF volunteers were "sheep-dipped"—stripped of the most obvious signs of their ongoing service connections—and transferred to Air America as C-119 pilots and loadmasters. 200 active-duty USAF B-26 mechanics were quietly seconded to the Armée de l'Air to maintain the CIA's bomber force, on the condition that they serve only in secure areas, where they could not be captured or spotted by reporters.

http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v3/v3n1/frcoin.html

[Ken]

I'd like to see some photos of the AC-131.

Excellent article here:
http://www.airspacemag.com/military-avi ... c=y&page=1

and, IIRC, this book has photos of Ron Terry and the C-131:

"GUNSHIPS, A PICTORIAL HISTORY OF SPOOKY (ISBN: 0897471237 / 0-89747-123-7), Davis, Larry, Squadron Signal, 1982"

[Ken]

Individual exhaust stubs. If built, would have used low time TB-25Ns.

Missed that, but you are absolutely right! It would have had the upper collector and lower Claytons just like most of today's surviving TB-25s.

[Wildchild]

Well, back to the gunship B-17, we now have another witness including the witnesses name.

To all of you non-believers:

I haven't been able to speak to my neighbor in a few days, but my dad was talking to one of his coworkers about his experience in Vietnam. The coworker's name is Don Emmott, and his first day in Vietnam happened to be January 29th, 1968, the day before the Tet Offensive began. My Dad, mindful of the discussion going on here, asked Don if he ever saw any B-17's in Vietnam. Don replied with a story about calling in fire support, and seeing a B-17 gunship orbit the fire base where he was stationed, and light up the surrounding jungle with tracer rounds. He continued describing the "wall of fire" that cut up the jungle foliage. Tomorrow, my Dad is planning on speaking with Don again to get some more details about the encounter with the B-17's.

Also, the prospect that Pat (my neighbor) may have mistaken the identity and type of the aircraft converted into a gunship is highly unlikely. Sure any memory, no matter how good, will forget details. But I doubt that someone who remembers the name of every crew member he has worked with, every aircraft he has flown, every location he flew into or out of, would forget what type of aircraft he was stationed on in Vietnam.

More to come!

Steve

By the way, I encourage everyone to read this link: half way down it talks about a I-15 pilot that claimed to have shot down a Ju-87 and no one believed him. Till a picture showed up of it sitting on a beach, like he said it would be...

http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/t ... 55e53d5f8a